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David Chaus

Beyond Help
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Team Gathermeister
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Nov 12, 2015
Posts
5,529
Location
Stanwood, WA
@David Chaus, too bad The Car Guys are gone. This is more a relationship question than a ski question. How is this "gift," that's really more about your quiver than about her enjoyment, going to go over in the long (or even the short) run? Presumably she's no dope and will see through this in fifteen seconds.

My dad gave my mom an old pair of his skis. They were "much better" than her even older wood ones. (This was fifty years ago.) Unfortunately he decided to use the old skis for kindling without asking her first. She never skied again. She also never stopped telling the story. So, don't take away her old standbys.

My suggestion: Get two pairs of skis. Don't tell her. Go ski them both if you must. Pick the one you like better. Give her the other pair outright. Don't borrow them; they are hers. (But do tune them, of if you are a tuner.) Take her to a special show or whatever she loves to do. Say thank you for her willingness to hit the slopes with you, and tell her how much you love being outdoors together. Okay, now you have domestic capital AND a pair of narrow skis.

Yeah, this would be a perfect Magliozzi question.
It’s not about me getting her something that’s really intended for me, or trying to fool her. I have no intention of taking her Nemisis away, and I’d be more than willing to buy her what she wants outright.

It’s more, can I get something for myself that I would be stoked about skiing, that she could also use and would actually be more appropriate for the terrain she tends to ski. I thought of the AX because of wide envelop of abilities that can use it. If she ever wanted to try my Z90’s she can, I have demo bindings on them, though they are a bit long for her at 174, but not out of the question.

Now, if she tried the AX and then wanted one for herself, or a Motion, I’d be fine with that. It‘s just more money that I might not have. Just got to see a few more clients and accumulate a few more billable hours.
 

PNWRod

Getting off the lift
Skier
Joined
Nov 9, 2017
Posts
301
Location
Crystal Mtn
OK, I can't wait any longer for it to snow. I gotta try these puppy's out. IMG_20191101_101208503.jpg
 

UGASkiDawg

AKA David
SkiTalk Tester
Joined
Nov 12, 2015
Posts
1,760
Location
CO
So, you’re saying I should get a Bomber Pro Terrain? ;) (I kinda miss the sneaky devil emoji).

I suppose an Atlas to go along with my Z90, or a DPS Trainer. I wouldn’t even know what flex to get in an Augment.

That said, if we’re talking about Stockli, yeah, I kinda figured. Thanks.

the middle one...stunningly good ski
 

LindseyB

Stöckli
Industry Insider
Manufacturer
Joined
Jan 14, 2019
Posts
402
Location
SLC
Stöckli does not use polyurethane adhesives to glue their skis together and as far as I’m aware neither does anybody else. Stöckli uses an adhesive that was originally developed during WW II for use in the aircraft industry called Redux https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Redux_(adhesive) The components are first coated with either phenol or epoxy resin (depending on model) and then with polyvinyl formal powder, the application process is shown from 1:10 in the ‘Stöckli Ski Manufacturing’ video .


Redux produces a very strong and durable bond, tests on airframe components bonded with Redux have shown little or no deterioration after 30 years of service http://www.adhesivestoolkit.com/Docs/test/E8 Long term adhesive performance De Haviland Comet.xtp

The use of Redux is a USP, I am very surprised that you are unaware of it.


We don't use PVF, it is a PU. While the process is similar to what your are discussing, it has differing components. The resin spray's first purpose is to hold the PU powder to the layers. Assisting in the bonding is secondary. Thus why I say we do not use epoxy to bond the skis.

I have been in the room with the glue machine and have held the PU powder in my hands. I'll be there again in 4 weeks.

I was speaking with Gerhard today and discussed once again more about our lamination process. Gerhard hosts many factory tours as he is head of international. He confirmed for the tenth time that it is a PU powder.

I'm curious where you got this redux/pvf idea. Maybe your info is out of date?
 

Swiss Toni

Out on the slopes
Skier
Joined
Aug 26, 2016
Posts
586
The information I have on Stöckli’s adhesive system mainly comes from research projects carried out at the Lucerne University of Applied Sciences and Arts, which is only a short distance away from the Stöckli factory in Malters. In 2015 Engineers from the Department of Technology & Architecture optimized Stöckli’s pressing process https://www.hslu.ch/de-ch/hochschule-luzern/ueber-uns/medien/magazin/archiv/2015/02/04/skipresse/ as part of that process they also looked at Stöckli’s adhesive system. If you scroll down to page 10 of this presentation on the simulation of adhesive bonds in ski production http://docplayer.org/30444404-Simulation-von-klebverbuenden-in-der-skiproduktion.html it says that:

“Stöckli Kleber ist nicht reines Epoxid-Harz,
sondern eine Kombination aus
-phenolbasichemHarz (Duroplast)
-Polyvinylformalpulver (Thermoplast)”

Stöckli’s adhesive is not pure epoxy resin,
but a combination of:
-Phenol based resin (thermoset)
-Polyvinyl formal powder (thermoplastic)

Phenolic resin + polyvinyl formal powder = Redux.

In order to prevent the formation water during the cure reaction skis bonded with Redux have to be pressed at higher temperatures (140°C) than skis bonded with epoxy resin, which can be pressed at 120°C. In order to reduce the pressing temperature, the researchers Lucerne University came up with the idea of using epoxy resin and polyvinyl formal powder, the bond isn’t quite a strong as with phenolic resin but it’s still more than strong enough. They published their results in a poster, which unfortunately is no longer online. As far as I am aware this is the current situation, it is of course possible that they have changed the adhesive system again since then, but it would be very disconcerting if they have changed it after such a short period of time, as it would imply that there was something wrong with the previous system. Can you provide any data on the strength and durability of the polyurethane system?

I very much doubt that Gerhard Haemmerle, Stöckli’s head of international sales the has an in-depth knowledge of structural adhesive systems. It would be much better if you spoke to Mathieu Fauve or maybe David Schiffmann the author of the above presentation who also developed a virtual ski model to simulate the complete heating / pressing process that includes the calculation of the adhesive's curing behavior https://www.ansys.com/other/hall-of-fame/archive/2018/luasa

If you look at this video of a factory tour led by Gerhard Haemmerle in 2017


you will see that at 01:43 the ‘spew’ (the excess adhesive squeezed out of the skis during pressing) is a brownish color, this indicates that phenolic resin was used as it is only available in brown.

After optimizing the pressing process Lucerne University went on to work on the optimization of Stöckli’s entire production process.
 

LindseyB

Stöckli
Industry Insider
Manufacturer
Joined
Jan 14, 2019
Posts
402
Location
SLC
The information I have on Stöckli’s adhesive system mainly comes from research projects carried out at the Lucerne University of Applied Sciences and Arts, which is only a short distance away from the Stöckli factory in Malters. In 2015 Engineers from the Department of Technology & Architecture optimized Stöckli’s pressing process https://www.hslu.ch/de-ch/hochschule-luzern/ueber-uns/medien/magazin/archiv/2015/02/04/skipresse/ as part of that process they also looked at Stöckli’s adhesive system. If you scroll down to page 10 of this presentation on the simulation of adhesive bonds in ski production http://docplayer.org/30444404-Simulation-von-klebverbuenden-in-der-skiproduktion.html it says that:

“Stöckli Kleber ist nicht reines Epoxid-Harz,
sondern eine Kombination aus
-phenolbasichemHarz (Duroplast)
-Polyvinylformalpulver (Thermoplast)”

Stöckli’s adhesive is not pure epoxy resin,
but a combination of:
-Phenol based resin (thermoset)
-Polyvinyl formal powder (thermoplastic)

Phenolic resin + polyvinyl formal powder = Redux.

In order to prevent the formation water during the cure reaction skis bonded with Redux have to be pressed at higher temperatures (140°C) than skis bonded with epoxy resin, which can be pressed at 120°C. In order to reduce the pressing temperature, the researchers Lucerne University came up with the idea of using epoxy resin and polyvinyl formal powder, the bond isn’t quite a strong as with phenolic resin but it’s still more than strong enough. They published their results in a poster, which unfortunately is no longer online. As far as I am aware this is the current situation, it is of course possible that they have changed the adhesive system again since then, but it would be very disconcerting if they have changed it after such a short period of time, as it would imply that there was something wrong with the previous system. Can you provide any data on the strength and durability of the polyurethane system?

I very much doubt that Gerhard Haemmerle, Stöckli’s head of international sales the has an in-depth knowledge of structural adhesive systems. It would be much better if you spoke to Mathieu Fauve or maybe David Schiffmann the author of the above presentation who also developed a virtual ski model to simulate the complete heating / pressing process that includes the calculation of the adhesive's curing behavior https://www.ansys.com/other/hall-of-fame/archive/2018/luasa

If you look at this video of a factory tour led by Gerhard Haemmerle in 2017


you will see that at 01:43 the ‘spew’ (the excess adhesive squeezed out of the skis during pressing) is a brownish color, this indicates that phenolic resin was used as it is only available in brown.

After optimizing the pressing process Lucerne University went on to work on the optimization of Stöckli’s entire production process.

Yes, we work with Lucerne University and ETH Zurich and Porsche Consulting, and, and, and.... It's not the only development that we do.

The video you loaded describes the powder as "Rubber Coating" @ 1:46. Observe the screen shot which is direct from the official 2019/20 clinic powerpoint. It is referred to as "rubber powder". Gerhard calls it PU powder. I call it polyurethane or elastic powder as it was described to me. A lot of people understand the characteristic of rubber, polyurethane, or elastic, but almost nobody is familiar with PVF, thus providing no context when explaining lamination properties. If Stockli HQ is calling the substance a rubber powder, is that an issue with you? It is not actually rubber from a rubber tree, but the word "rubber" is used to describe process and properties.

Screen Shot 2019-11-03 at 7.16.52 PM.png


When in Malters in 4 weeks and I pick up the bag that feeds the machine and it reads either PU or PVF, it will make no difference. It matters very little what the name is. What matters is that it creates smooth, stable, adaptable, long lasting skis.

I know Mathieu and spend as much time with him as possible during our trips. We discuss ski design at length whenever there is time. You stated, " it would be very disconcerting if they have changed it after such a short period of time, as it would imply that there was something wrong with the previous system". Changing something could imply many things other than "something wrong". In fact, Mathieu constantly experiments with new glues as well as other materials because he never stops testing for even the slightest improvement.

You asked for data on the current system so here is the data: The skis perform very nicely. ;)

Things you may want to know since you get really into info: The press temps are higher than other manufacturers and the clinic says phenol/rubber, so those might be a few clues that the lower temp epoxy/PVF system you mentioned is not being used. I really will double check if PVF is utilized when I am there, but it does not appear the lower temp epoxy part of the formula is in play whatsoever.
I also know this specific grade of powder is only available from one company in the world and that company is not located in Europe.
I won't discuss the nation, but I will say it is a very highly regarded nation for manufacturing quality.
Atomic used to utilize a very similar lamination process in their race department at one point, but quit using it because it requires much longer press times making it more expensive.

IMG_4564.JPG


Gerhard, Talia(us customer service manager) and Mary Kay(mid Atlantic)

Side note, the excess glue is a blood red color.
 
Last edited:

erickucla

In the parking lot (formerly "At the base lodge")
Skier
Joined
Oct 24, 2019
Posts
7
Location
Truckee, NV
Yes, we work with Lucerne University and ETH Zurich and Porsche Consulting, and, and, and.... It's not the only development that we do.

The video you loaded describes the powder as "Rubber Coating" @ 1:46. Observe the screen shot which is direct from the official 2019/20 clinic powerpoint. It is referred to as "rubber powder". Gerhard calls it PU powder. I call it polyurethane or elastic powder as it was described to me. A lot of people understand the characteristic of rubber, polyurethane, or elastic, but almost nobody is familiar with PVF, thus providing no context when explaining lamination properties. If Stockli HQ is calling the substance a rubber powder, is that an issue with you? It is not actually rubber from a rubber tree, but the word "rubber" is used to describe process and properties.

View attachment 83671

When in Malters in 4 weeks and I pick up the bag that feeds the machine and it reads either PU or PVF, it will make no difference. It matters very little what the name is. What matters is that it creates smooth, stable, adaptable, long lasting skis.

I know Mathieu and spend as much time with him as possible during our trips. We discuss ski design at length whenever there is time. You stated, " it would be very disconcerting if they have changed it after such a short period of time, as it would imply that there was something wrong with the previous system". Changing something could imply many things other than "something wrong". In fact, Mathieu constantly experiments with new glues as well as other materials because he never stops testing for even the slightest improvement.

You asked for data on the current system so here is the data: The skis perform very nicely. ;)

Things you may want to know since you get really into info: The press temps are higher than other manufacturers and the clinic says phenol/rubber, so those might be a few clues that the lower temp epoxy/PVF system you mentioned is not being used. I really will double check if PVF is utilized when I am there, but it does not appear the lower temp epoxy part of the formula is in play whatsoever.
I also know this specific grade of powder is only available from one company in the world and that company is not located in Europe.
I won't discuss the nation, but I will say it is a very highly regarded nation for manufacturing quality.
Atomic used to utilize a very similar lamination process in their race department at one point, but quit using it because it requires much longer press times making it more expensive.

View attachment 83666

Gerhard, Talia(us customer service manager) and Mary Kay(mid Atlantic)

Side note, the excess glue is a blood red color.
LindseyB,
I’m torn between the SR88 and the AR. Which one would be easier and more forgiving to ski. I’m ninety percent on piste in Tahoe. I’m not an expert.... the nordica enforcer is too much ski for me...too powerful and heavy
 

LindseyB

Stöckli
Industry Insider
Manufacturer
Joined
Jan 14, 2019
Posts
402
Location
SLC
LindseyB,
I’m torn between the SR88 and the AR. Which one would be easier and more forgiving to ski. I’m ninety percent on piste in Tahoe. I’m not an expert.... the nordica enforcer is too much ski for me...too powerful and heavy

The AR and 88 will be forgiving in different situations.

The AR will be easier to round out a turn once rolled on edge and easier to control speed in a carve, but if you are looking for a ski that will brush the carves or skid easier, let's say in steep on piste where linking carves may be out of your skill set, the 88 will be more accommodating. The nose design of the AR really encourages carving and rounding the turns.

Also the 88 can be a bit of work on flat light days where people tend to creep into the back seat. The 88 is our least forgiving recreational ski if you find yourself sitting on the tails at all.

Without seeing you ski, I would recommend the AR over the 88 for less skilled skier wanting to link turns almost every time.

I sounds to me like your perfect combo would be an AR for most days and finding a lightweight powder ski for that 10% of the days when storms deliver.

Length will certainly be a factor. I would avoid the 88 in 186cm mo matter how big you are. And I would avoid the AR in 182 unless you are really big.

Let me know if you have any other questions beyond this.
 

Swiss Toni

Out on the slopes
Skier
Joined
Aug 26, 2016
Posts
586
If Stockli HQ is calling the substance a rubber powder, is that an issue with you?

Not really, if you go on one of the Stöckli factory tours they will tell you that the white powder is Gummi (German for rubber) you can tell just by looking at it that it's not. I assumed that they didn’t want to tell us exactly what it is for commercial reasons which is fair enough, the tours are free and you get a drink at the end. The issue is that in a previous post you said that it was PU, that set the alarm bells ringing! Rubber is very vague term, it can mean many things. PU on the other hand is quite specific and from what you said in a subsequent post it sounded like the adhesive now being used was a heat cured PU which would be a major change and probably not one for the better.

Both epoxy and phenolic resins are inherently brittle, they have to be ‘toughened’ in order to increase their flexibility otherwise they will crack. Once a crack starts it grows very quickly and disintegration follows. The white powder applied to the ski components after they have been coated with resin is the toughening agent, if you change that you change the mechanical properties of the adhesive. Polyvinyl formal powder seems to be the best toughening agent available for phenolic resin. The combination of phenolic resin and PVF powder produces a very strong and durable adhesive, tests carried out on structural aircraft components bonded with it showed no deterioration in strength even after 30 years of service. Why would you use anthing else?

I also know this specific grade of powder is only available from one company in the world and that company is not located in Europe.
I won't discuss the nation, but I will say it is a very highly regarded nation for manufacturing quality.

That seems to be a very long-winded way of saying Japan. The polyvinyl formal resin used in Redux was originally manufactured by Monsanto in St. Louis, Missouri and was sold under the trade name “Formvar”, at some point they sold the process to the Chisso Corporation of Japan who sells it under the tradename “Vinylec”. It might not say that on the bag as it could have been repackaged by the supplier.

The use of the phenolic resin + white powder adhesive is not unique to Stöckli, it’s also used by the tiny Liechtenstein company SKIBAUArt https://www.skibauart.li/ You can see the owner ex world cup racer and former Stöckli employee Achim Vogt applying it at 4:38


In 2015 Stöckli spent around half a million swiss francs on upgrading their presses, they have 5 two bay presses made by Fill of Austria. Originally, they were heated by a central steam generator, temperature regulation was a problem and if the steam generator broke down production stopped.

The guys at Lucerne University came up with the idea of using pressurized water heaters and chillers instead, these are located on top of the presses, there is a heater and a chiller for each press bay. They also installed a touch screen electronic control system and made changes to the press beds that resulted in more even heating.

The project was partially funded by the Swiss government. The agency concerned produced a report in which it is stated that the press bays can now be heated to different temperatures, either 120°C or 140°C. Why go to all that trouble and expense if you don’t use the additional temperature setting? In 2016 Mathieu Fauve gave a presentation on ski development at Stöckli http://conferences.innosquare.com/f...kienttwicklung-Swiss_Plastics-2016-MFauve.pdf on slide 22 he states that Stöckli use both epoxy and phenolic resin-based adhesives.

If the white powder is not PVF then it would be interesting to know what advantages powder x has over PVF.

It would also be good to know whether or not you are still using epoxy and if not, why was its use discontinued. The downside of using phenolic resin is that it has to be cured at 140°C, the melting point of UHMWPE base material is between 135°C and 145°C so using an adhesive that could be cured at 120°C would make sense.
 

LindseyB

Stöckli
Industry Insider
Manufacturer
Joined
Jan 14, 2019
Posts
402
Location
SLC
Not really, if you go on one of the Stöckli factory tours they will tell you that the white powder is Gummi (German for rubber) you can tell just by looking at it that it's not. I assumed that they didn’t want to tell us exactly what it is for commercial reasons which is fair enough, the tours are free and you get a drink at the end. The issue is that in a previous post you said that it was PU, that set the alarm bells ringing! Rubber is very vague term, it can mean many things. PU on the other hand is quite specific and from what you said in a subsequent post it sounded like the adhesive now being used was a heat cured PU which would be a major change and probably not one for the better.

Both epoxy and phenolic resins are inherently brittle, they have to be ‘toughened’ in order to increase their flexibility otherwise they will crack. Once a crack starts it grows very quickly and disintegration follows. The white powder applied to the ski components after they have been coated with resin is the toughening agent, if you change that you change the mechanical properties of the adhesive. Polyvinyl formal powder seems to be the best toughening agent available for phenolic resin. The combination of phenolic resin and PVF powder produces a very strong and durable adhesive, tests carried out on structural aircraft components bonded with it showed no deterioration in strength even after 30 years of service. Why would you use anthing else?



That seems to be a very long-winded way of saying Japan. The polyvinyl formal resin used in Redux was originally manufactured by Monsanto in St. Louis, Missouri and was sold under the trade name “Formvar”, at some point they sold the process to the Chisso Corporation of Japan who sells it under the tradename “Vinylec”. It might not say that on the bag as it could have been repackaged by the supplier.

The use of the phenolic resin + white powder adhesive is not unique to Stöckli, it’s also used by the tiny Liechtenstein company SKIBAUArt https://www.skibauart.li/ You can see the owner ex world cup racer and former Stöckli employee Achim Vogt applying it at 4:38


In 2015 Stöckli spent around half a million swiss francs on upgrading their presses, they have 5 two bay presses made by Fill of Austria. Originally, they were heated by a central steam generator, temperature regulation was a problem and if the steam generator broke down production stopped.

The guys at Lucerne University came up with the idea of using pressurized water heaters and chillers instead, these are located on top of the presses, there is a heater and a chiller for each press bay. They also installed a touch screen electronic control system and made changes to the press beds that resulted in more even heating.

The project was partially funded by the Swiss government. The agency concerned produced a report in which it is stated that the press bays can now be heated to different temperatures, either 120°C or 140°C. Why go to all that trouble and expense if you don’t use the additional temperature setting? In 2016 Mathieu Fauve gave a presentation on ski development at Stöckli http://conferences.innosquare.com/f...kienttwicklung-Swiss_Plastics-2016-MFauve.pdf on slide 22 he states that Stöckli use both epoxy and phenolic resin-based adhesives.

If the white powder is not PVF then it would be interesting to know what advantages powder x has over PVF.

It would also be good to know whether or not you are still using epoxy and if not, why was its use discontinued. The downside of using phenolic resin is that it has to be cured at 140°C, the melting point of UHMWPE base material is between 135°C and 145°C so using an adhesive that could be cured at 120°C would make sense.


Toni, what is your last name and where do you reside? I'd like to buy you a beer next month when I am in Switzerland so you can relax a little.

Your are right, it is PVF. You've done you're best to make sure pugski knows you know it all and you deserve a medal Sir.

"I assumed that they didn’t want to tell us exactly what it is for commercial reasons which is fair enough, the tours are free and you get a drink at the end."
If you understood that nobody wanted to tell those on the tour specifics for commercial reasons, I don't understand why you take it upon yourself to go to great lengths to make the specifics known to everyone.
 

Swiss Toni

Out on the slopes
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Joined
Aug 26, 2016
Posts
586
I said that “I assumed”, on further investigation I discovered that this could not possibly be the case as I found several articles detailing what it actually is, if you scroll down to “Leim für Elastizität” in this article https://www.schreiner.ch/de/news/handgemachte-hightech-skier?region=41996 you will see that it says they use Reduxleim (Redux glue). If you want to keep something secret you don’t allow your employees to give interviews to journalists about it, do you?

If you had checked out the information I posted in my first post there would have been no need for me to post anything further. You could also have sent me a PM asking for further information, but you kept posting rebuttals so I had no alternative other than to provide further information to back up my claim. What was I supposed to do? All the information I have provided was found via Google, it is freely available to anyone who cares to search for it.

Thanks very much for your kind offer to buy me a beer. Unfortunately, I live some distance away from Malters so I won’t be able to make it. I hope you enjoy your trip and are able to get some skiing in.
 

LindseyB

Stöckli
Industry Insider
Manufacturer
Joined
Jan 14, 2019
Posts
402
Location
SLC
I said that “I assumed”, on further investigation I discovered that this could not possibly be the case as I found several articles detailing what it actually is, if you scroll down to “Leim für Elastizität” in this article https://www.schreiner.ch/de/news/handgemachte-hightech-skier?region=41996 you will see that it says they use Reduxleim (Redux glue). If you want to keep something secret you don’t allow your employees to give interviews to journalists about it, do you?

If you had checked out the information I posted in my first post there would have been no need for me to post anything further. You could also have sent me a PM asking for further information, but you kept posting rebuttals so I had no alternative other than to provide further information to back up my claim. What was I supposed to do? All the information I have provided was found via Google, it is freely available to anyone who cares to search for it.

Thanks very much for your kind offer to buy me a beer. Unfortunately, I live some distance away from Malters so I won’t be able to make it. I hope you enjoy your trip and are able to get some skiing in.

Not everyone is supportive of sharing abundant information about the gluing system, the sharing is done in varying degrees, the specifics are not shared widely. I am in the camp of "sharing less info helps mitigate imitators".

I said "your right, it is PVF" to end this, I guess that didn't work.

To remind you, you started this. "You could also have sent me a PM asking for further information." You could have just as easily sent me a PM when I said polyurethane. All this could have been avoided if you followed your own advice. Both of us could wait for final confirmation from HQ and done so in a friendly manner, but you weren't interested in that from the first sentence you typed.

I will now send you the entirety of this in a PM where it belongs. I don't have the luxury of anonymity.

I'll only include these parts publicly because I think it speaks volumes to your intent:


Continuing: You said you were "VERY surprised I was unaware". Let's call a spade a spade. (This isn't from a point of concern as you would pretend, but was meant to imply ineptitude on my part and competency on yours, this is an attempt at being condescending which you disingenuously repeat multiple times) If you were here for a forthright discussion you would never have said that you are "VERY surprised", especially not when you immediately turn around and state your opinion that, "I VERY much doubt that Gerhard Haemmerle, Stöckli’s head of international sales the has an in-depth knowledge of structural adhesive systems." You can't have it both ways. You can't pretend to be astonished that I possibly use the wrong name but somehow should know more than one of the people that host the tour at the factory. Once again, you're just looking to fight.

When I went to the trouble of asking Gerhard and reported what he said, this wasn't a rebuttal, it was a only a report. When I asked you about your sourcing, saying it might be out of date, I wasn't refuting the info. I was in fact implying it might be accurate, but likely not current because of the discussion I had earlier that day with Gerhard. This was giving you credit as I was leaving the door open that your info could be accurate. You took this differently than it was written and intended.

You made it clear that you are greatly concerned with who is right and not what is right by your behavior. "You could have just as easily said, I am confident that the gluing system is Redux, but I am curious to see what you find out. Please post your findings at that time." But you didn't, you jumped at the chance to make a mountain out of a mole hill.

I then extended the olive leaf and offered some information, to which you used to do more research, insulting me with that same info I provided to you as a courtesy. Some would call this classic trolling behavior.




I came on to pugski to provide insights about Stockli.

I'm here to try and help.

I don't share everything I know for a variety of reasons:

For instance, I know of several independent ski companies in the US that might jump at the chance if they could find ways to implement some of our ski building techniques. Therefore I hold back a good amount of info. Not that it can't be found, but every time it is posted online, it becomes easier to find in searches.

I also don't want to "overstay my welcome" and become overbearing on the public side of the forum by annoying people with non stop promotion of Stockli. I understand there are people here that have fun on other brands as well and I want to tread lightly. I'm cautious that members here would get tired of an abundance of self promotion. If this is not the case, I'm happy to provide everything I share with the retailers here and to provide materials like our elearning platform logins and my personalized slide deck that I built for clinics. I typically reserve this for the PMs I receive. Having responded repeatedly to a lot of the same questions, this might save time for both parties. I would be happy to do a thread of Stockli info if it is helpful so long as it isn't overbearing for the members.
 

Philpug

Notorious P.U.G.
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@LindseyB

We appreciate your Stockli information and suggestions when questions are asked.

I also can’t blame you for being irritated when proprietary info is posted on a public forum.
We are also appreciative that @LindseyB is taking the time to answer these questions. As far as the propriety information @Swiss Toni pointed out that everything he posted was found on Google and not privy information. This still come back to the analogy, just because you have the ingredients, does not mean you know how to bake the cake.
 

Unpiste

Booting down
Skier
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Feb 15, 2016
Posts
586
Location
California
I also don't want to "overstay my welcome" and become overbearing on the public side of the forum by annoying people with non stop promotion of Stockli. I understand there are people here that have fun on other brands as well and I want to tread lightly. I'm cautious that members here would get tired of an abundance of self promotion. If this is not the case, I'm happy to provide everything I share with the retailers here and to provide materials like our elearning platform logins and my personalized slide deck that I built for clinics. I typically reserve this for the PMs I receive. Having responded repeatedly to a lot of the same questions, this might save time for both parties. I would be happy to do a thread of Stockli info if it is helpful so long as it isn't overbearing for the members.
I think a lot of this material could be pretty interesting to have available. I'd love for ski makers in general to share more complete product information with their customers.
 

ScottB

Making fresh tracks
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Oct 29, 2016
Posts
2,166
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Gloucester, MA
On a lighter note, I just dropped off my "new to me" 2018 Stockli Laser AX 183cm skis to SkiMD for a base grind. I requested a 0.5 base / 3.0 side tune. I am curious what the downside is for this precise a tune compared to the factory numbers of 1.3 / 2.0 that Lindsay told us about? I am a New England skier and will use these skis as my hard snow daily driver. I expect the skis to feel more edgy and to have better grip on scraped surfaces. My race skis with this tune can be "too" grippy in moguls, I am hoping that has more to do with the ski and less with the tune. I can always increase the base bevel if I don't like the 0.5.
 

NE1

Getting on the lift
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Joined
Aug 22, 2016
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259
Location
Cape Cod, MA
On a lighter note, I just dropped off my "new to me" 2018 Stockli Laser AX 183cm skis to SkiMD for a base grind. I requested a 0.5 base / 3.0 side tune. I am curious what the downside is for this precise a tune compared to the factory numbers of 1.3 / 2.0 that Lindsay told us about? I am a New England skier and will use these skis as my hard snow daily driver. I expect the skis to feel more edgy and to have better grip on scraped surfaces. My race skis with this tune can be "too" grippy in moguls, I am hoping that has more to do with the ski and less with the tune. I can always increase the base bevel if I don't like the 0.5.

I`m sure Mike would steer you right if you were making questionable choices.
 

erickucla

In the parking lot (formerly "At the base lodge")
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Joined
Oct 24, 2019
Posts
7
Location
Truckee, NV
The AR and 88 will be forgiving in different situations.

The AR will be easier to round out a turn once rolled on edge and easier to control speed in a carve, but if you are looking for a ski that will brush the carves or skid easier, let's say in steep on piste where linking carves may be out of your skill set, the 88 will be more accommodating. The nose design of the AR really encourages carving and rounding the turns.

Also the 88 can be a bit of work on flat light days where people tend to creep into the back seat. The 88 is our least forgiving recreational ski if you find yourself sitting on the tails at all.

Without seeing you ski, I would recommend the AR over the 88 for less skilled skier wanting to link turns almost every time.

I sounds to me like your perfect combo would be an AR for most days and finding a lightweight powder ski for that 10% of the days when storms deliver.

Length will certainly be a factor. I would avoid the 88 in 186cm mo matter how big you are. And I would avoid the AR in 182 unless you are really big.

Let me know if you have any other questions beyond this.
Thanks Lindsey! I will get the AR then. For a lightweight Powder Ski, is the SR88 the lighest? Or are you suggesting that I look into a different brand like a Head Kore 93 or Liberty V92.

Thanks!!!
 

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