Comparison Review 2021 Look Bindings

noggin

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No changes this year. 75, 95, 115, 130 are the offerings.
Thanks Phil One question if you wanted to put pivots on a Stoockli AR, 83mm waist, would you go 75mm or 95mm brake width?
 
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Philpug

Philpug

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Thanks Phil One question if you wanted to put pivots on a Stoockli AR, 83mm waist, would you go 75mm or 95mm brake width?
Neither, I would have to choose a different binding. The 75mm is just too narrow and the 95 will have too much overhang. and especially on a narrower ski that will get high edge angles, you will get drag.
 

noggin

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Neither, I would have to choose a different binding. The 75mm is just too narrow and the 95 will have too much overhang. and especially on a narrower ski that will get high edge angles, you will get drag.
Thanks for confirming what I was thinking.
 

tomahawkins

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Does anybody have reliable information regarding the vertical release capability of the toe pieces of the NX 12, SPX 12, Pivot 12/14 and all metal Pivot 15 and 18? I have been led to believe that all NX, SPX and Pivot up to and including 14 support vertical release but the 15 and 18 don't due to their metal construction.

Perhaps not reliable information, just from my own experimentation: The 12/14 toes will release vertically, but it takes a lot of force to do so. I've turned my Pivot 12s down to 4 DIN; I can lift the toe out vertically, but it takes much more effort than a toe side release or a heel vertical release.

I just got a pair of Pivot 15s today, so naturally the first thing I did was take them apart:

pivot1.jpg
pivot2.jpg

Notice that the primary bolt rides on a ball-and-socket. This implies that Look designed it to move about more than one axis. You can also see that they rounded off the top edge of the support to make it easier for the bolt to rotate forward:
pivot3.jpg

The bolt on a normal side release:

pivot4.jpg

The bolt on a vertical release(?):
pivot5.jpg

And a side view with the metal housing. There is not much rotation:
pivot6.jpg
pivot7.jpg

I'll have to wait until I mount these to try a vertical release test, but I suspect like the 12, it will take a lot of effort to punch out vertically.
 

Marker

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Perhaps not reliable information, just from my own experimentation: The 12/14 toes will release vertically, but it takes a lot of force to do so. I've turned my Pivot 12s down to 4 DIN; I can lift the toe out vertically, but it takes much more effort than a toe side release or a heel vertical release.

I just got a pair of Pivot 15s today, so naturally the first thing I did was take them apart:

View attachment 127935
View attachment 127941

Notice that the primary bolt rides on a ball-and-socket. This implies that Look designed it to move about more than one axis. You can also see that they rounded off the top edge of the support to make it easier for the bolt to rotate forward:
View attachment 127940

The bolt on a normal side release:

View attachment 127939

The bolt on a vertical release(?):
View attachment 127938

And a side view with the metal housing. There is not much rotation:
View attachment 127937
View attachment 127936

I'll have to wait until I mount these to try a vertical release test, but I suspect like the 12, it will take a lot of effort to punch out vertically.
Thanks for showing us this disassembly and saving me the trouble of ever thinking to try it. As a chemist, I'm technically inclined to think about such things, but not comfortable to do so like my engineering friends.
 

tomahawkins

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Thanks for showing us this disassembly and saving me the trouble of ever thinking to try it. As a chemist, I'm technically inclined to think about such things, but not comfortable to do so like my engineering friends.

Here's the 12/14 toes:

toe1.jpg
toe2.jpg

Detail of the wings assembly:

toe3.jpg
toe4.jpg
toe5.jpg

A look at the support cavity with the matting surface for the wings. It allows the wings to pivot side to side and up:

toe6.jpg
toe7.jpg
toe8.jpg

I'm not qualified to render an opinion, but I like the mechanics of the 12/14s better than the 15/18s. The 12/14s have split wings with rollers where the 15/18s do not. Whether this improves release quality or elasticity, I do not know. But I admit the 12/14s lack something in aesthetics compared to the 15/18s, and it's not just metal vs plastic.
 

tomahawkins

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Anyone want to dissect a Pivot heel?

A Pivot 12 w/ 75 mm bakes mounted to a R21 plate on a Dynastar Team Speed SL.

heel1.jpg

The Pivot holes drilled into space on the R21 so I had to backfill with epoxy. No pull-outs as of yet!
heel2.jpg

The plastic housing is only for looking cool, DIN indication, and getting stabbed with your pole. It's held in place by plastic clips and a pin seen below and right of the indicator window.
heel3.jpg

Just drill it out. When the bit grabs, you can pull the pin out roughly intact. No need to drill all the way through.
heel4.jpg
heel5.jpg

All the easily accessible parts.
heel6.jpg

Note the camshaft in the open and closed position.
heel7.jpg
heel8.jpg

Reinserting the spring guide pin. The flat top mattes with the camshaft.
heel9.jpg

The difference between open and closed is only about 1/4 inch of spring travel.
heel10.jpg
heel11.jpg

The spring back in.
heel12.jpg

Clipping the DIN indicator back on the tensioning screw.
heel13.jpg

The indicator and tensioning screw back in the plastic housing.
heel14.jpg
heel15.jpg

Screw in a bit then push the housing down. The plastic clips will snap into place.
heel16.jpg

Pin reinserted. Warranty Void!
heel17.jpg
 

Marker

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Here's the 12/14 toes:

View attachment 128005
View attachment 128013

Detail of the wings assembly:

View attachment 128012
View attachment 128010
View attachment 128009

A look at the support cavity with the matting surface for the wings. It allows the wings to pivot side to side and up:

View attachment 128008
View attachment 128007
View attachment 128006

I'm not qualified to render an opinion, but I like the mechanics of the 12/14s better than the 15/18s. The 12/14s have split wings with rollers where the 15/18s do not. Whether this improves release quality or elasticity, I do not know. But I admit the 12/14s lack something in aesthetics compared to the 15/18s, and it's not just metal vs plastic.
I have loosened the springs on my old 12 and Dual 14 like yours shown to see how much those toe wings move. Just didn't take that last few turns to disassembly...
 

Marker

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Anyone want to dissect a Pivot heel?

A Pivot 12 w/ 75 mm bakes mounted to a R21 plate on a Dynastar Team Speed SL.

View attachment 128041

The Pivot holes drilled into space on the R21 so I had to backfill with epoxy. No pull-outs as of yet!
View attachment 128026

The plastic housing is only for looking cool, DIN indication, and getting stabbed with your pole. It's held in place by plastic clips and a pin seen below and right of the indicator window.
View attachment 128027

Just drill it out. When the bit grabs, you can pull the pin out roughly intact. No need to drill all the way through.
View attachment 128040
View attachment 128039

All the easily accessible parts.
View attachment 128038

Note the camshaft in the open and closed position.
View attachment 128042
View attachment 128037

Reinserting the spring guide pin. The flat top mattes with the camshaft.
View attachment 128036

The difference between open and closed is only about 1/4 inch of spring travel.
View attachment 128035
View attachment 128034

The spring back in.
View attachment 128033

Clipping the DIN indicator back on the tensioning screw.
View attachment 128032

The indicator and tensioning screw back in the plastic housing.
View attachment 128031
View attachment 128030

Screw in a bit then push the housing down. The plastic clips will snap into place.
View attachment 128029

Pin reinserted. Warranty Void!
View attachment 128028
It is a little sobering to see the mechanics by which our joints, bones, and ligaments are protected, but still reassuring that they're Pivots. I also understand better why the shop has to check the DIN settings. Those indicators look a little janky.
 

tomahawkins

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So it's my first time installing Pivot 15s and I've hit a couple discrepancies compared with the 12 toe pieces. The first is the 15 toes appear to shift the boot back about 4mm compared with the 12s -- with the same mounting holes on a 2x4 it took 6 clicks on the rear bindings (3 turns) to get the same forward pressure:

dis1.jpg
dis2.jpg

Is this discrepancy expected? I can't imagine Look changed the mounting dimensions from 2020 to 2021.

The next problem is the 15s leave my boots floating in free space. The gap is about 1mm. I tightened and loosened the forward pressure, but the gap is still there. What am I missing? There's not much left to adjust.

dis3.jpg

Where as the 12s are nice and snug.

dis4.jpg


And @dx111, regarding vertical release on the 15s: No, I can't see it happening. I took a crowbar to the boot and could barely get it to lift. The screws will strip out before this binding lets go.

Also, the 12s have a greater elasticity than the 15s. I measure 47mm vs 41mm:

elast1.jpg
elast2.jpg

All of this makes me question which is really the better binding.
 

anders_nor

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I dont have any 12's, but I can grab a 14 toe vs a 15 toe to verify

With the new pivot jig (spinny thingy) and metal toe bindings (2021) there is 0 adjustment needed when you used the boot in the jig?! its some kind of magic unlike the french.
 

Noodler

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So it's my first time installing Pivot 15s and I've hit a couple discrepancies compared with the 12 toe pieces. The first is the 15 toes appear to shift the boot back about 4mm compared with the 12s -- with the same mounting holes on a 2x4 it took 6 clicks on the rear bindings (3 turns) to get the same forward pressure:

View attachment 128244
View attachment 128243

Is this discrepancy expected? I can't imagine Look changed the mounting dimensions from 2020 to 2021.

The next problem is the 15s leave my boots floating in free space. The gap is about 1mm. I tightened and loosened the forward pressure, but the gap is still there. What am I missing? There's not much left to adjust.

View attachment 128242

Where as the 12s are nice and snug.

View attachment 128241


And @dx111, regarding vertical release on the 15s: No, I can't see it happening. I took a crowbar to the boot and could barely get it to lift. The screws will strip out before this binding lets go.

Also, the 12s have a greater elasticity than the 15s. I measure 47mm vs 41mm:

View attachment 128245
View attachment 128246

All of this makes me question which is really the better binding.

So you have the tech manual and have reviewed the installation instructions?
 

tomahawkins

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@tomahawkins - that‘s odd about the toe. I’ve mounted 2 pairs, both 15’s, w/ jigarex. No space like that in the toes, but im in Lange RS130s with plates.

Pivots on plates? That's cool.

RS130s, so no GripWalk I assume? Hmmm... Looking at the toes side by side, the 15's AFD is a little higher (~0.5mm) and it's wings are more so (~1mm). Both AFDs appear to be the same distance back from the mount screws.
 

givethepigeye

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@tomahawkins - negative. Boots have 5mm plates on solid sole. Maybe your toe piece isn’t put back together correctly - both mine (so that is 4 total toe pieces) were totally fine w/ respect to AFD - or your boot sole is whack
 

Asnis

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Is there any difference between the Pivot 12 and the Pivot Pro? I've seen them both at the same price.
 
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