Cage Match Comparison 2021 Nordica Enforcer 104 Free vs. 2021 Rossignol Black Ops Sender Ti

ski otter 2

Out on the slopes
Skier
Joined
Nov 20, 2015
Posts
1,237
Location
Front Range, Colorado
P.S The difference between the Soul 7 and K2 Pinnacle 105 (in longer length, moved forward, for me) is how they do in crud: one flops, the other is smooth sailing, tops.

For me, K2 escaped a reputation for meh in its narrower skis by its fantastical wider offerings, thanks to the likes of Seth Morrison, Sean Pettit, and Pep Fujas. Long live the Obsethed 116s (not the narrower ones)!!! Long live the Pettitor 120s!!!!!!! (Both in longest length, moved forward, like Seth!!!)
(The Rossi Black Ops 118 & 118 Gamer are actually Pettitor knock offs, thank Heavens.) :ogbiggrin:
(Or maybe they were all improvements on the original S7s, not sure.)
 

Wasatchman

over the hill
Skier
Joined
Nov 9, 2017
Posts
985
Location
Wasatch and NZ
P.S The difference between the Soul 7 and K2 Pinnacle 105 (in longer length, moved forward, for me) is how they do in crud: one flops, the other is smooth sailing, tops.

For me, K2 escaped a reputation for meh in its narrower skis by its fantastical wider offerings, thanks to the likes of Seth Morrison, Sean Pettit, and Pep Fujas. Long live the Obsethed 116s (not the narrower ones)!!! Long live the Pettitor 120s!!!!!!! (Both in longest length, moved forward, like Seth!!!)
(The Rossi Black Ops 118 & 118 Gamer are actually Pettitor knock offs, thank Heavens.) :ogbiggrin:
(Or maybe they were all improvements on the original S7s, not sure.)
Whatever it is, Nordica is just destroying K2 and Rossi at the moment. Let's see if the black ops catch on. I hardly saw anyone on k2 mindbenders last season. It's only one season, but the mindbenders seemed to sell less than the pinnacle based on what I saw on the mountain. Regardless, I would think covid makes it a tougher than average year to really try and get momentum with a new ski line.
 

fatbob

Not responding
Skier
Joined
Nov 12, 2015
Posts
3,218
It's only one season, but the mindbenders seemed to sell less than the pinnacle based on what I saw on the mountain. Regardless, I would think covid makes it a tougher than average year to really try and get momentum with a new ski line.
QFT

I hardly saw many Mindbenders in 30+ days across a variety of resorts Montana to Tahoe. ANd following reviews on this forum I was looking out for them. My Euro days were hardpack and sucky so wouldn't have expected to see any there.

But the real truth is your last line - no-one normal is going to be getting stoked to buy new skis when skiing is a question of if or maybe.

Against that maybe people with secure jobs/income who've a little more in their pocket because they just aren't doing the commute/lunch out/gigs/pro sports tix etc stuff. But in my mind as someone relatively prudent that's buffer against future income not being so good not extra consumer goods.
 

Flo

Booting up
Skier
Joined
Feb 12, 2020
Posts
72
Location
Tahoe
75% of the people call themself “expert” because they are used to rent skis. And if you want decent skis in most rental shop you need to say that you are an expert. It happend to me in several different places. I would define myself has a high intermediate but saying that I was offered 10 years old Flimsy Rossignol (pursuit I think) or similar old and very very soft skis. Same for the boots they did not even have a flex rating. When I said I wanted a Navigator / Bushwacker or similar they said that these skis were in the expert package. Basically, you need to pay the highest price tag rental to have decent skis. Expert skis = modern recent skis; Intermediate= beat up rentals. It could have only been a bad experience but it happened in too many places (even some with good reputation).
I think that the biais come from that, not only people who thinks they are expert because once they skied a double black run).
Yeah, agree with you it would be good if the MX line still kept a more burly version closer to the old MX.

I don't disagree with you on your logic regarding Rossi. The issue is ski buyers aren't always rational. They often buy wider than they probably should for their typical use, and many skiers overestimate their ability. Hence if a ski gets labeled as too easy, it may have a perception problem as not many skiers want to be seen on the "easy" ski. I think there is something to what @Philpug saying about K2 and the old recon line. I certainly know among my friends they gave me grief for owning some K2's.

I remember DV manager telling me in their surveys something like 75 percent rate themselves as expert skiers. So that kind of says something about what you're dealing with trying to sell skis.

Regardless, I've definitely come to the conclusion that coming out with a best selling ski is so much more than simply building a good ski. And it goes both ways with a subset of people. I haven't even demoed the Enforcer line on the assumption that something that is so universally popular is probably not going to be as enjoyable for me. So I try to keep an open mind but I have personal biases as well, namely about not wanting a ski that is too popular.

Edit: my inherent bias on a universally popular ski is call it the Toyota Camry and Honda Civic theory. They are great cars but not super exciting to drive. I really should demo a pair of enforcers but I can't get over the bias.
 

ski otter 2

Out on the slopes
Skier
Joined
Nov 20, 2015
Posts
1,237
Location
Front Range, Colorado
Whatever it is, Nordica is just destroying K2 and Rossi at the moment. Let's see if the black ops catch on. I hardly saw anyone on k2 mindbenders last season. It's only one season, but the mindbenders seemed to sell less than the pinnacle based on what I saw on the mountain. Regardless, I would think covid makes it a tougher than average year to really try and get momentum with a new ski line.
I agree with all of this, and suspect this may be almost a down or lost year in terms of ski sales, dunno.

To me in addition there is an accessibility problem with many good K2s. Skied "as is," from the factory, I can't think of many I've liked much. All the good ones - to me all fatter, except for the IKonic - have required tricks, modifications that I found out from the reps or those associated with K2. Bigger skiers have a different set of mods, if any; but for average size and smaller skiers, lengths become crucial, and often lengths longer than one might normally purchase. Mount points become crucial, for some size skiers, and vary from ski to ski, skier to skier. And detuning at the tip becomes crucial for some models, detuned in front of the tip contact point, or base bevel steepened up there - at just the right point, often (and different points depending on the model or length). The Mindbenders, in particular, I'd call a complicated ski because of all this fine tuning of how to adjust and ski them optimally, and how much better or worse they can handle as a result. (And, yes, I'd think it was just me, except with K2 it is routine for the reps and dealers to figure these mods out and pass them on to others. But they will probably not say something unless you ask. )

By comparison, with the Enforcers all this has been simple, just set up as suggested and good to go.
 

Wasatchman

over the hill
Skier
Joined
Nov 9, 2017
Posts
985
Location
Wasatch and NZ
I agree with all of this, and suspect this may be almost a down or lost year in terms of ski sales, dunno.

To me in addition there is an accessibility problem with many good K2s. Skied "as is," from the factory, I can't think of many I've liked much. All the good ones - to me all fatter, except for the IKonic - have required tricks, modifications that I found out from the reps or those associated with K2. Bigger skiers have a different set of mods, if any; but for average size and smaller skiers, lengths become crucial, and often lengths longer than one might normally purchase. Mount points become crucial, for some size skiers, and vary from ski to ski, skier to skier. And detuning at the tip becomes crucial for some models, detuned in front of the tip contact point, or base bevel steepened up there - at just the right point, often (and different points depending on the model or length). The Mindbenders, in particular, I'd call a complicated ski because of all this fine tuning of how to adjust and ski them optimally, and how much better or worse they can handle as a result. (And, yes, I'd think it was just me, except with K2 it is routine for the reps and dealers to figure these mods out and pass them on to others. But they will probably not say something unless you ask. )

By comparison, with the Enforcers all this has been simple, just set up as suggested and good to go.
Well I absolutely hate the first gen K2 ikonic 85ti. But love the k2 pinnacle 88. The pinnacle 88 is so easy and fun and nimble and does so well for it's width in pow. It's a blast in the bumps as well. It definitely has a speed limit. But what it does well is just so fun to me. Whereas the ikonic 85ti first gen was blah all around to me. Haven't had a chance to try the mindbenders. But I was hoping they'd catch on better than they have so far as it's just a total Nordica runaway right now.
 

Wasatchman

over the hill
Skier
Joined
Nov 9, 2017
Posts
985
Location
Wasatch and NZ
75% of the people call themself “expert” because they are used to rent skis. And if you want decent skis in most rental shop you need to say that you are an expert. It happend to me in several different places. I would define myself has a high intermediate but saying that I was offered 10 years old Flimsy Rossignol (pursuit I think) or similar old and very very soft skis. Same for the boots they did not even have a flex rating. When I said I wanted a Navigator / Bushwacker or similar they said that these skis were in the expert package. Basically, you need to pay the highest price tag rental to have decent skis. Expert skis = modern recent skis; Intermediate= beat up rentals. It could have only been a bad experience but it happened in too many places (even some with good reputation).
I think that the biais come from that, not only people who thinks they are expert because once they skied a double black run).
Very good point. Although the DV survey was broader context not just ski rental so I think there is more to it than you state although I think you make a great point.
 

ski otter 2

Out on the slopes
Skier
Joined
Nov 20, 2015
Posts
1,237
Location
Front Range, Colorado
Well I absolutely hate the first gen K2 ikonic 85ti. But love the k2 pinnacle 88. The pinnacle 88 is so easy and fun and nimble and does so well for it's width in pow. It's a blast in the bumps as well. It definitely has a speed limit. But what it does well is just so fun to me. Whereas the ikonic 85ti first gen was blah all around to me. Haven't had a chance to try the mindbenders. But I was hoping they'd catch on better than they have so far as it's just a total Nordica runaway right now.
I meant the 2nd generation or more recent Ikonics. I didn't like the first ones either.
 

fatbob

Not responding
Skier
Joined
Nov 12, 2015
Posts
3,218
Ironically among the 25% who classed themselves non expert would be very advanced skiers who have skied with true experts and therefore recognise their status. And the true experts who would just laugh/shrug at the question and walk off.
 
Thread Starter
TS
Philpug

Philpug

Notorious P.U.G.
Admin
SkiTalk Tester
Joined
Nov 1, 2015
Posts
26,951
Location
Reno, eNVy
There is no question Nordica is hitting on all cylinders right now...in skis and boots. IMHO, I liked the originaly Experience 88 verses the new now which is more a me too ski, It is better in every way but nothing seperates it from the pack. The new Black Ops Senter Ti I have here is a stellar ski, they did a killer job with it. The Enforcer 104, is also really nice, as will all Cage Matches, there is on one ski for everyone.

As far as the recent Ikonics, that ski did nothing for me, a Camry or great appliance. The new Disruption 82Ti? A fun ski with an actual personality.
 

François Pugh

Making fresh tracks
Skier
Joined
Nov 17, 2015
Posts
3,822
Location
Great White North (Eastern side currently)
75% of the people call themself “expert” because they are used to rent skis. And if you want decent skis in most rental shop you need to say that you are an expert. It happend to me in several different places. I would define myself has a high intermediate but saying that I was offered 10 years old Flimsy Rossignol (pursuit I think) or similar old and very very soft skis. Same for the boots they did not even have a flex rating. When I said I wanted a Navigator / Bushwacker or similar they said that these skis were in the expert package. Basically, you need to pay the highest price tag rental to have decent skis. Expert skis = modern recent skis; Intermediate= beat up rentals. It could have only been a bad experience but it happened in too many places (even some with good reputation).
I think that the biais come from that, not only people who thinks they are expert because once they skied a double black run).
I discovered many decades ago when buying and/or demonstrating new skis, that if I didn't classify myself as an expert, I was only presented with noodles having no torsional rigidity nor longitudinal stiffness, with a grip weaker than your arthritic grandmother and the high-speed stability of a bike with a tiny front wheel and negative rake and trail. I had only been skiing 10 years, had never taken a lesson and hesitated to call myself an expert, but I did, because it was the only way to get to try/buy a decent ski.
 

ski otter 2

Out on the slopes
Skier
Joined
Nov 20, 2015
Posts
1,237
Location
Front Range, Colorado
There is no question Nordica is hitting on all cylinders right now...in skis and boots. IMHO, I liked the originaly Experience 88 verses the new now which is more a me too ski, It is better in every way but nothing seperates it from the pack. The new Black Ops Senter Ti I have here is a stellar ski, they did a killer job with it. The Enforcer 104, is also really nice, as will all Cage Matches, there is on one ski for everyone.

As far as the recent Ikonics, that ski did nothing for me, a Camry or great appliance. The new Disruption 82Ti? A fun ski with an actual personality.
I liked the original Rossi Experience 88 too. In between, they lost me.

There were so many different new Black Ops at the industry/rep Rossi/Dynastar demo day I went to late last Fall. Slightly overwhelming, that first introduction. Not sure they pushed any one of them over the others, at the time. And we had a better relationship with the Dynastar guy, in the other tent. (That day, I liked the Dynastars better, for the most part - except for a Rossignol 174/r.14 Elite Plus near slalom, and the Sender Squad 112.) One of the Rossi reps suggested the Sender Squad as his favorite, was how I tried it. Not sure introducing all those unknown skis with similar graphics and names all at once was the best strategy. But I tried as many as I could.

Similarly, there were so many different new K2 Disruption models and so little time at SIA. And I knew that my shop would never carry them. I picked one to try, after the rep suggested it as one of two or three, as I recall - but it wasn't his first pick. (If that one showed promise, I'd have tried another.) That one, that particular model, ski and tune, was a "no." Strike out, especially comparatively. It was a Disruption 84 184/r. 25.

(When I could get my hands on them, as my own pet project, I'd been skiing one narrower "cheater" GS ski after another, in the weeks before that, so I thought I'd try a "change up" wider version, one I could compare to the 19/20 Fischer RC1 GT 86 Multiflex, maybe. Oh, well. That RC1 turned out to be Ski Magazine's Ski of the Year. )

If I do try another Disruption, I'll opt for the 82ti, unless the reps push another.
(SIA probably not as likely this year. Everything more complicated.)

Meanwhile, for me, the Mindbenders were hitting triples and home runs. I happened to get on a wrong length MB 90 for me, possibly mis-tuned, but otherwise it was "wahoo!" especially as I got the mount points down.
 
Top