Northern Rockies/Alberta 2022-2023 Big Sky Resort/Conditions/Meetups

[skidrew]

Only getting worse price wise. I’m guessing eventually BSR will drop the Base Ikon pass, just like Jackson Hole did. That seems to have improved Jackson tremendously with crowds.

Not sure BSR has an incentive to drop base pass so long as they can handle skier numbers with reservations. High hotel prices benefit BSR and imagine more than make up for any delta in revenue from providing only 4 skier days vs. 7 on the base pass.

 

[dovski]

Not sure BSR has an incentive to drop base pass so long as they can handle skier numbers with reservations. High hotel prices benefit BSR and imagine more than make up for any delta in revenue from providing only 4 skier days vs. 7 on the base pass.

BSR absolutely makes more $$$ off real estate, accommodations and all the other add ons vs. lift tickets….. but with demand the way it is, the can likely max that out and still cut the base pass if they wanted to. Simply put the have a great product and a ton of demand even with their premium price point. Have a feeling that many who ski there have a lot of price elasticity. Still remember a group I met there from Georgia who all bought new skis and boots because they did not like the idea of renting. They also did the all day private lessons where the instructors met them at their ski in ski out chalet every morning . Highly doubt that lift ticket prices were even a blip on their radar.

To be clear when it comes to skiing you three kinds of money:

1. Smart money where you get the biggest bang for your ski dollars using every trick in the book and deal to do so
2. Dumb money where they really just don’t know any better
3. And I don’t care money because you have so much it just doesn’t matter to you

I thin BSR is veering towards number 3 these days.

 

[skidrew]

Maybe I'm not understanding the economics of Ikon . . . currently BS accepts Ikon base for 4 days, with blackouts, or 7 days and no blackouts. Why would they want to rule out 4 days of non-peak skiing when they could sell those skiers hotels and food, which is where they make the money anyway from Ikon skiers? The economics might be different if BSR were less of a company town and those Ikon basers were taking away ski-day slots from more valuable skiers. But unless I'm missing complaints has BS had to turn away Ikon skiers under the reservation system this year? If not, they have determined the mountains can handle all the skiers (including local passholders and ticket buyers) so overloading lifts also isn't an issue.

 

[Black Dog]

I think the IKON bass pass gives 5 days not 4 (with blackouts)?

 

[skidrew]

I think the IKON bass pass gives 5 days not 4 (with blackouts)?

Yeah, that’s right. Point remains the same.

 

[gratedwasabi]

Just wanted to chime in to say that through all of my trips so far this year Big Sky remains my favorite. Fantastic resort, even when it was -18F. Can't wait to go back next year.

 

[dovski]

Maybe I'm not understanding the economics of Ikon . . . currently BS accepts Ikon base for 4 days, with blackouts, or 7 days and no blackouts. Why would they want to rule out 4 days of non-peak skiing when they could sell those skiers hotels and food, which is where they make the money anyway from Ikon skiers? The economics might be different if BSR were less of a company town and those Ikon basers were taking away ski-day slots from more valuable skiers. But unless I'm missing complaints has BS had to turn away Ikon skiers under the reservation system this year? If not, they have determined the mountains can handle all the skiers (including local passholders and ticket buyers) so overloading lifts also isn't an issue.

I think the real question is do the Ikon Base Pass holders drive incremental revenue for BS or not. My hypothesis is that someone who wants to save $$ on skiing by getting a Base pass, will probably also gravitate to more affordable destinations. So this may be a case of BS getting little to no benefit from Base Pass holders in which case they may be indifferent. Unfortunately without more data on the cost vs benefit of the base pass to BS, we are really just speculating

 

[Bill Miles]

I think the real question is do the Ikon Base Pass holders drive incremental revenue for BS or not. My hypothesis is that someone who wants to save $$ on skiing by getting a Base pass, will probably also gravitate to more affordable destinations. So this may be a case of BS getting little to no benefit from Base Pass holders in which case they may be indifferent. Unfortunately without more data on the cost vs benefit of the base pass to BS, we are really just speculating

Agree. We have no idea how much a resort gets from an Ikon visit day.

 

[Rio]

FYI - All routes south from Big Sky, even driving through Ennis or Butte, are closed today due to blizzard conditions in Idaho. For anyone planning a trip where they drive from Utah to Big Sky you should take into account you might be delayed for a day or two in Idaho.

 

[Black Dog]

FYI - All routes south from Big Sky, even driving through Ennis or Butte, are closed today due to blizzard conditions in Idaho. For anyone planning a trip where they drive from Utah to Big Sky you should take into account you might be delayed for a day or two in Idaho.

Just curious, does the road from Bozeman to BS ever close due to snow?

 

[Rio]

Just curious, does the road from Bozeman to BS ever close due to snow?

Rarely and never for any significant length of time. The Big Sky community depends on it for all their food, propane & tourists.

 

[skidrew]

Rarely and never for any significant length of time. The Big Sky community depends on it for all their food, propane & tourists.

Yeah, it's pretty heavily traveled and regularly plowed, as is the highway up the mountain. Of course in some conditions it can be pretty hairy to drive either . . . but it does seem to be a priority route to plow.

 

[skidrew]

I think the real question is do the Ikon Base Pass holders drive incremental revenue for BS or not. My hypothesis is that someone who wants to save $$ on skiing by getting a Base pass, will probably also gravitate to more affordable destinations. So this may be a case of BS getting little to no benefit from Base Pass holders in which case they may be indifferent. Unfortunately without more data on the cost vs benefit of the base pass to BS, we are really just speculating

The whole model is really interesting to be as a business proposition. One thing does seem clear - you almost have to be on one of the passes these days. If you're not, resort skiers will go elsewhere. Now, maybe some places figure they're not quite in that group and can semi-opt out like JHMR (people will come and pay regardless) but dunno if Big Sky is among them.

 

[tele]

The whole model is really interesting to be as a business proposition. One thing does seem clear - you almost have to be on one of the passes these days. If you're not, resort skiers will go elsewhere. Now, maybe some places figure they're not quite in that group and can semi-opt out like JHMR (people will come and pay regardless) but dunno if Big Sky is among them.

Ikon base actually pays the resorts less money, I think its $10-$20 less per day than the Full Ikon Pass. Therefore, BSR has an incentive to drop it. Make more money with less people. Some will upgrade.

At some point, Moonlight will be fully built out. BSR will have to prioritize season passes over all other pass/ticket types. It only makes financial sense to do so too.

 

[tele]

You mean who can charge more to appear more exclusive?

Haha. O&O is going to crush the montage. Montage is poorly run and the food is awful. Service is terrible. I’d be super irritated if I stayed there. Fortunately I just tried dinner to find out how bad that place is. O&O could literally not even try and would likely be better.

 

[BS Slarver]

@tele - I couldn’t agree more about the Montage, what a joke, however won’t the O&O be pulling from the same gene pool of staff and work force ?
Maybe just a higher price for the same crap ? Will all the staff come from Dubai ?
The latest GM at Montage, I believe there third or Forth is a long time company man and still the mess continues. Even the YC struggles to retain staff.

Now with the Ikon, and I’m no expert but let’s say the pass holder has already skied 2-3 maybe 4 other mountains totaling 15 -20 days before arriving at BS, what’s left to pay BS resort ?
From those GMs I’ve talked to the first resort the Ikon user goes to gets the most in terms of dollars and less to each subsequent resort they visit, if BS is further down on the list to visit there isn’t much left to pay out ?

 

[tele]

@tele - I couldn’t agree more about the Montage, what a joke, however won’t the O&O be pulling from the same gene pool of staff and work force ?
Maybe just a higher price for the same crap ? Will all the staff come from Dubai ?
The latest GM at Montage, I believe there third or Forth is a long time company man and still the mess continues. Even the YC struggles to retain staff.

Good point on staffing, though the fed seems intent on destroying employment, so perhaps it will improve. The montage pretty much ruined SPMC too. Not sure who wants to lookout a clubhouse and see a massive beast building.

Now with the Ikon, and I’m no expert but let’s say the pass holder has already skied 2-3 maybe 4 other mountains totaling 15 -20 days before arriving at BS, what’s left to pay BS resort ?
From those GMs I’ve talked to the first resort the Ikon user goes to gets the most in terms of dollars and less to each subsequent resort they visit, if BS is further down on the list to visit there isn’t much left to pay out ?

That's interesting. I wasn't aware of the decay policy. I've heard the full pass pays around 60 a day, vs 50 a day for base. So I assume they kind of pay out at least some large portion. Even at 7 days, that's only 420 paid out at 60. Meaning at 14 days you're at 840. Pass is like 1100 or so. So it would seem they'd all get paid out until 10 days or so. Regardless, BSR is making more money on their Season Passes. So when push comes to shove, I assume they'll prioritize.

 

[skidrew]

Good point on staffing, though the fed seems intent on destroying employment, so perhaps it will improve. The montage pretty much ruined SPMC too. Not sure who wants to lookout a clubhouse and see a massive beast building.



That's interesting. I wasn't aware of the decay policy. I've heard the full pass pays around 60 a day, vs 50 a day for base. So I assume they kind of pay out at least some large portion. Even at 7 days, that's only 420 paid out at 60. Meaning at 14 days you're at 840. Pass is like 1100 or so. So it would seem they'd all get paid out until 10 days or so. Regardless, BSR is making more money on their Season Passes. So when push comes to shove, I assume they'll prioritize.

Well, there are all the Ikon holders who don't ski as many days which can make up the revenue to some degree, so have to wonder how the economics work for one passholder who skis all the limited resorts to the max 7 days vs. someone who skis just a couple of times.

Anyway, I tend to doubt it's a pure pay per day model. The resorts are getting money up front (in the summer) which is one of the reasons they join. So I'm guessing that Ikon essentially pays BSR some number of pass-user days up front - say 50,000 pass-days at $x/day. And that's based on the total number of Ikon passes sold (i.e. the 50k is some ratio of total pass sales). Then the question is what happens once the numbers go over that - guessing the payout is lower but something. Note that BSR required reservations, which allows it to throttle pass use if it needs to so it doesn't give away too many days at this lower rate.

As for season passes - hard exactly to compare because a season pass holder can ski well more than 7 days. The better comparison, though not perfect, is to the lower level passes BS offered - e.g., theFlex5, which was $500 at first (with blackout days - so basically directly comparable to Ikon Base). I"m figuring that Big Sky priced that to be pretty comparable to what they would see from Ikon, though it did offer early/late season skiing too.

 

[tele]

Damn, BSR has still not dropped off the Ikon Base pass for next year.

 

[skidrew]

This is upsetting why?

Damn, BSR has still not dropped off the Ikon Base pass for next year.

(I get the hate for Ikoners but those lifts don’t pay for themselves with just locals buying the BS passes.