Mid-Atlantic 2022-2023 Poconos and Greater Area Ski Resorts/Conditions/Meetups

[4aprice]

-KSL made significant capital expenditures at Blue and Camelback resorts, which it recently acquired, including the installation of new high-speed lifts. To cover these expenses, it's likely that prices, including season passes, were increased.

-It's possible that KSL understands that even with price increases, customers will still visit. I personally opt for Blue over other nearby resorts like Spring, Bear Creek, JFBB, or Camelback due to its appeal and proximity to the Philadelphia area. The other mountains either lack the same appeal or are farther away for me.

-Season passes are still priced at least somewhat reasonably. I paid $650 for an early season pass and used it 14 times before sustaining an MCL injury in the deep sugar on the slopes last Saturday. This amounts to approximately $46 per visit. I anticipate a quick recovery and plan to hit the slopes for at least 30 days at a cost of $22 per visit. I believe this shift towards season passes, rather than individual tickets, is a general trend in the ski industry. At any rate, Blue can be outrageously expensive for people who want to ski less or ski a wider variety of ski areas.

Mend up. Lean snow years can be the worst on the limbs

Will be interesting to see what KSL does this summer. On one hand skiing revenue is down due to the weather and of course the general economy is what it is, but they are pretty tight lipped with the plans. At Camelback the Marc Antony lift has all the chairs removed and I don't think it will ever operate again. Cleopatra is older then that and has not run in years. The top of the Julius Ceaser while unaccessable seems to be being maintained for the time being. My hope of course is that they put up a high speed between the Bubble and Stevenson and with a few little trail modifications make the Marc Anthony and Cleopatra trails more skiable in a top to bottom fashion.

Yes the passes are the way to go. Skiing takes much more planning then it used to. I now carry 3 season passes for the skiing I do. Won't do you any good at Camelback or Blue (same operators -they can't even get together) but between the 3 big multi mountain passes, you can cover a lot of places especially if you alternate passes annually. If your going west it's a no brainer.

Looks like a good window to make snow. More terrain should be opening up really soon at Camelback. Nile Mile, Rocket and Pocono Raceway. I plan on tomorrow morning, skip Friday and Saturday (Pillow over minus digit temps) then get Sunday and maybe Monday in.

 

[4aprice]

Back from the morning 15. (runs that is). Conditions pretty good for early groomers. Something happened (heard it was a blown transformer) so only the Bubble was running while I was there, however looked like things were going to open up as I left. Huge whales on Rocket and Lower Cleopatra. Not sure if the lift problem extended to snow making or not. They were blowing when I arrived, seemed to shut down for a while, which I thought was strange cause it was cold, then slowly seemed to start up again.

 

[4aprice]

Here comes the sun



Camelback opening bell this morning

 

[BaysideSkier]

Figured this would be the best place to ask first. Can anyone recommend a good ski instructor that can preferably go to Camelback for private lessons? Or recommend a specific instructor at Camelback? Or any better options, thoughts? Thinking that a private would be better than a group lesson at this point.

I’m just getting back into skiing after a ~35 year hiatus and my wife is just learning. She’s just beginning to start to parallel ski. For reference here’s the link from my new member intro

Thanks in advance.


Thread 'Getting back into it from the South Jersey Shore'
https://www.skitalk.com/threads/getting-back-into-it-from-the-south-jersey-shore.29668/

 

[mikes781]

@BaysideSkier how far apart are the two of you in ability? I was in the same boat a few years ago with my daughters just starting and me retuning after 20+ years, I did a private lesson or two with them and personally didn’t get too much out of it as they were geared towards their level. Just something to think about if you are much further along at this point. If you are going mid-week and they have group lessons for all ability levels that might be a good option. You will each end up put in groups with similar ability and they will likely be small. It’s been a few years but me and my daughters have had private lessons at Blue and they were all good. I called up the school and they made recommendations based on our backgrounds. If you going during the weekend, private is definitely the way to go.

 

[BaysideSkier]

@BaysideSkier how far apart are the two of you in ability? I was in the same boat a few years ago with my daughters just starting and me retuning after 20+ years, I did a private lesson or two with them and personally didn’t too much out of it as they were geared towards their level. Just something to think about if you are much further along at this point. If you are going mid-week and they have group lessons for all ability levels that might be a good option. You will each end up put in groups with similar ability and they will likely be small. It’s been a few years but me and my daughters have had private lessons at Blue and they were all good. I called up the school and they made recommendations based on our backgrounds. If you going during the weekend, private is definitely the way to go.

@mikes781 thanks for the input. We are a good apart in ability. She has good speed control and is linking turns while snowplowing. I picked up some kinda quick, and am parallel skiing, stopping and turning. I have some good runs with nice S shaped turns and some sloppy mixed runs. My biggest issue is growing into my new skis. Going from 165cm rentals to 177cm Salomon s/force TI.76 skis is a big difference for me, and a far cry from what I skied in the 80's and early 90's. I've skied them 5 times this season and am improving each time out. I also was held back some with the grade 1 right MCL sprain I had which is now about 85-90% better.

I'll do what you said and give them a call first to see what they suggest.

Thanks!

Go Birds!!

 

[dbostedo]

Can anyone recommend a good ski instructor that can preferably go to Camelback for private lessons?

One thing to let you know in case you don't... there are very few places in the US outside of specific camps and clinics where instructors that aren't resort employees are allowed to teach. So there's no such thing as hiring an instructor to teach at Camelback. You either go through Camelback's ski school, or you don't get a lesson.

 

[salvatore]

Thinking about driving to either Jack Frost or Roundtop this coming Wednesday. Any real-world reports of either location? Thanks!

 

[BaysideSkier]

One thing to let you know in case you don't... there are very few places in the US outside of specific camps and clinics where instructors that aren't resort employees are allowed to teach. So there's no such thing as hiring an instructor to teach at Camelback. You either go through Camelback's ski school, or you don't get a lesson.

I figured that may be the case. Was hoping someone knew a specific instructor at Camelback they would recommend

 

[4aprice]

Couple of 20 run mornings at Camelback yesterday and today. Nice weather, nice groomers, overall nice workouts in prep or going out west a month from this Thursday. Probably hit tomorrow as well before the weather and holiday weekend shut me down till next week (maybe Sunday).

Don't know any instructors up there anymore.

 

[kitchener]

going out west a month from this Thursday.

Practically on the same schedule. We leave a month from this Wednesday (giving Mount Bachelor in Oregon a try).

 

[justplanesteve]

One thing to let you know in case you don't... there are very few places in the US outside of specific camps and clinics where instructors that aren't resort employees are allowed to teach.

Can you elucidate "allowed"?
It does seem that "out west" states cater to the ski industry and legislation & statutes are specifically stacked in their (resorts) favor. Some interpretations of BLM leases might suggest the same, though that is by no means clear.

At least at small hills in the east it seems not particularly unusual to round a corner (or even observe from a lift) and see a class being conducted by someone who is not a ski school employee. Anywhere from a "probably" one-on-one by a "probably" professional. To an obvious group lesson with an at least practiced instructor. Maybe a club outing. etc.

What statute prevents private individuals from meeting and participating in instructive activity on private property if they otherwise comply with the terms agreed on the lift ticket or season pass?

FWIW, i work for a couple areas so should? be against the practice but can't really come up with a good argument against.
For "outwest" resorts on public land, i think there is a very good argument in favor of being open to any instructor a guest might care to bring. Precedent would be how other public facilities operated by private entities (concessions), such as airports, are run. No matter the size of the FBO or school, i can bring my own privately arranged instructor or meet an examiner, and use all the FBO amenities including lounge & rest rooms (though possibly not actual school specific rooms) as well as the flight related facilities and no one would think it out of line. (FBO= "fixed base operator": the concession operating the airport and selling fuel, repairs, rentals, flight school, tie-down or hangar space, perhaps sub-leasing a restaurant, etc.)

smt

 

[dbostedo]

At least at small hills in the east it seems not particularly unusual to round a corner (or even observe from a lift) and see a class being conducted by someone who is not a ski school employee. Anywhere from a "probably" one-on-one by a "probably" professional. To an obvious group lesson with an at least practiced instructor. Maybe a club outing. etc.

Personally, I've never seen that. That being said, if it happens you're likely violating the terms of the lift ticket sale and conducting business inside another business. Like setting up a candy stand of your own inside a movie theater.

Here's an article:

Going Rogue

Pirate ski instructors selling under-the-table private lessons will save you money. But at what cost?

www.skimag.com

 

[justplanesteve]

Like setting up a candy stand of your own inside a movie theater.

That is specious.
A more apt comparison would be advertising on C-list for group or private outings to a circus, rodeo, or ball game for a master class on how to understand, appreciate, and critique the form. Or how to best navigate and utilize the attractions in a major theme park. (So long as you did not in any way disrupt the other patrons).

Another FWIW: i also believe BLM leases to concessions ought to be structured just like airport leases in most jurisdictions. (or like ports and terminals) I don't know if this is the case for ski resorts or other concessions in National & state parks or not? You, the concession agree to build the facilities and turn title over to the municipality. In return, you are granted a fixed term exclusive lease to that part of the premises, usually with "several" additional optional extensions. I participate in one where we built a $300,000 heated hangar and hospitality center in 1995-6. We were granted 20 years, with 2 additional 5 year optional (to both parties) extensions. Since then, we have proved to be a good enough asset that our leases, so far, have continued into our last 5 year interval with minimal (though still expensive) price increases. We are responsible for our own paving. The part that hurts is that we built and maintain the facility, the county owns it, but we still pay property taxes, even as a non-profit. The last time that was examined, the legal response from our lawyer was "call it something else, then, but you have to pay it if you want to stay in the facility" The cost was low when we built it because we literally built it (commercial insulated radiant heat building: many of our members at the time being contractors) ourselves with our own labor except the extensive foundations and slab. It is worth some 4 or 5 times the original cost at this point. And the county owns it and could turf us out if, say, "clients" complain too much. This is a standard arrangement in many jurisdictions.

smt

 

[dbostedo]

A more apt comparison would be advertising on C-list for group or private outings to a circus, rodeo, or ball game for a master class on how to understand, appreciate, and critique the form. Or how to best navigate and utilize the attractions in a major theme park. (So long as you did not in any way disrupt the other patrons).

I disagree with this. In the example you give, the circus, rodeo, or ballgame is not ALSO selling the exact same thing that you are and competing directly with you.

In the movie theater example, there's direct competition where you're taking their business away. That isn't the case in your example.

 

[RodneyBD]

Thinking about driving to either Jack Frost or Roundtop this coming Wednesday. Any real-world reports of either location? Thanks!

Looking forward to a condition report if you went!

 

[justplanesteve]

I disagree with this. In the example you give, the circus, rodeo, or ballgame is not ALSO selling the exact same thing that you are and competing directly with you.
In the movie theater example, there's direct competition where you're taking their business away. That isn't the case in your example.

Do keep in mind, i'm not interested in directly owned real estate.
My consideration is where public lands are used for private, monopolized profit, with little useful access to any public citizen who prefers to not be overly commoditized.

So lets go back to my original airport FBO example which is a direct analogy. (Any certified instructor can sell lessons to anyone while utilizing the greater public access facility even though one or more FBO's operates a school there, and built some or all of the infrastructure)
OTOH, to your point, i am wracking my brain (easy to do) trying to think of uncontrived similar situations.

However, i continue to think your example of pulling into a theatre lobby, setting up a physical stand, and selling physical product is a bit contrived as well.
Such commerce does go on in Subways, RR's, Bus Stations, parks, etc so long as the operator complies with non-insurmountable requirements re permitting.
To get closer to the ski area analogy, buskers are permitted in many, some with, some without, required registration.

Can you teach your sister or BIL to ski, or is that prohibited?
Taking a group of children, nieces and nephews?
How about a church, work group, or other club of which you are member for a days outing?
Does whether funds are exchanged factor into the equation?
Suppose the ad hoc ski club buys the instructor member's ticket, but no other compensation? (I have heard of examples from participants)

smt

 

[dbostedo]

Such commerce does go on in Subways, RR's, Bus Stations, parks, etc so long as the operator complies with non-insurmountable requirements re permitting.
To get closer to the ski area analogy, buskers are permitted in many, some with, some without, required registration.

I agree with this... it's just that there is no permitting system for outside instructors whether the land is private or not. You may wish it was that way, but it isn't. It's much more like a theater - the operator has exclusive rights and you setting up any sales there is generally illegal. It's basically like it's not public land in the same sense that sidewalks, parks, and common spaces are.

Can you teach your sister or BIL to ski, or is that prohibited?
Taking a group of children, nieces and nephews?
How about a church, work group, or other club of which you are member for a days outing?
Does whether funds are exchanged factor into the equation?

I'd think the last question is the key. Is there payment involved? If so it's illegal.

 

[salvatore]

Looking forward to a condition report if you went!

Sorry, did not go. Nearly 70 degrees today. Destroyed my motivation.

 

[Wendy]

Sorry, did not go. Nearly 70 degrees today. Destroyed my motivation.

Yeah, same problem here.

The snow conditions this year have been hard on my knees. I think I'm going to not ski until I go to the Gathering in Utah. I'd rather have intact joints and not be in the best ski shape rather than risk a knee injury before the trip. Maybe after I get back home, winter will return to the east coast and I can ski better conditions. Ha. Not holding my breath!