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2022 New Zealand focuses (Rookie Academy)

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mike_m

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Zirbl: That’s a pretty accurate summation. One of the keys is that each activity flows into the next. The “bottle cap” press and turn gripping the snow leads into pointing the toes opposite the turning direction of the ski tips to lock the edge of the outside ski into the snow as you start downhill; inclination flows into angulation; etc. Nothing is held onto. There are no “positions.” In other words, you never get to enjoy the moment!

In regards the difference in the amount of foot, leg, and upper body turning in the direction of the turn, the key is that the point of skiing is to go somewhere! If you have a definite target in mind (the next apex), your body will usually know what and how much to do to take you there. Once your fundamental movement patterns are ingrained, you should, ideally, be able and willing to trust them. Technique is only a means to an end; the ability use gravity, the terrain, and your equipment to take you where you want to go with the most efficiency and joy! (That’s my intention anyway!)

Best,
Mike
 
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Zirbl

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Thanks @mike_m .

Now then, seeing as this isn't controversial enough. If the Rookie coaches are advocating this subtalar bottle cap move, are they doing any Schlopy/Miller/Gellie-type medial ankle punches and bootboard grinds to aid it, or is their thinking on boots fairly orthodox?
 
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markojp

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With many of the skiers that I admire, there's a pronounced difference in the amount of rotation into the turn, as between long- to medium-radius turns (more), and short radius turns (much less). Do you see that distinction as widely accepted among the schools you're discussing?

Steering angle* is great in short turns than long.

* the divergence between the direction the skis are travelling and the direction the CoM is moving.
 

fatbob

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I think I can just about get the bottle cap move if I accept it's the ball of my inside foot and the trigger that puts me on edge as that foot becomes the outside foot for the next turn. Is that right?

I hate to think of what my old outside foot is doing because if I try to screw that the same way it's just going to mess me up. Maybe just have to think about the ball of that foot letting go.
 

LiquidFeet

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@mike_m, your annual technical reports from Rookie Academy always generate good high level discussions. Thank you again for taking the time to write in depth about what is being taught there.
 

JESinstr

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I think I can just about get the bottle cap move if I accept it's the ball of my inside foot and the trigger that puts me on edge as that foot becomes the outside foot for the next turn. Is that right?

I hate to think of what my old outside foot is doing because if I try to screw that the same way it's just going to mess me up. Maybe just have to think about the ball of that foot letting go.
Let's not lose sight of the fact that all this is really about dorsifelxion or creating tension in the foot/ankle. And without muscle tension there is no control.
 

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Pointing the toes to the outside of the turn to increase foot tipping is really interesting. I'll try to remember to play with that this season.
 

Chris V.

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Steering angle* is great in short turns than long.

* the divergence between the direction the skis are travelling and the direction the CoM is moving.
I expect that's true most of the time. In spite of sometime claims to the contrary, very short radius turns are rarely edge-locked carved.

"Steering angle" is a term with a well-defined, understandable meaning. "Steering" is the one I still have a lot of trouble with. It seems to mean different things to dofferent people, and discussions too rarely clarify how the term is being used.

My earlier comment was actually intended to draw attention to another matter--differences in the degree of upper-lower body separation, in longer vs. shorter radius turns.
 

markojp

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I expect that's true most of the time. In spite of sometime claims to the contrary, very short radius turns are rarely edge-locked carved.

"Steering angle" is a term with a well-defined, understandable meaning. "Steering" is the one I still have a lot of trouble with. It seems to mean different things to dofferent people, and discussions too rarely clarify how the term is being used.

My earlier comment was actually intended to draw attention to another matter--differences in the degree of upper-lower body separation, in longer vs. shorter radius turns.

There's a very very direct correlation between steering angle and upper/lower body separation.
 
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mike_m

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Zirbl: No discussion of boots/footbeds during the training. I venture to say, however, that there is general agreement with Gellie/Harb that footbeds are optimal when they coax the sole of the foot to a neutral alignment and it retains some ability to articulate (not rock hard and locking the foot into a position).

Fatbob: Not quite sure about that description. There is always functional tension in both dorsiflexed feet. The bottle-cap twist on the ball of the new outside foot occurs after you have stepped to it and it is planted on the snow. The inside foot has already lifted and is starting to slide back.

There is simultaneous, continuous activity in both feet at all times. One lifts and the weight shifts to the other; one slides back, the other slides ahead; one supinates, the other pronates.

JESinistr: I agree.
 
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razie

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@mike_m nice write up. Some great advice in there. Some stuff raises an eyebrow (some.of the steering, pushing, rising or guiding) and a fewthibgs sound rotationally off, but it may be due to word choice or my lack of mental 3D-fu.

I don't like to think knee to outside shoulder - it flies in the face of tipping the foot, but there's a time for it. Like @James noted, at high edge angles, there's not many places to shove that deeply bent inside leg. Raising up the kneeallows a bit more room, but I would prefer to think of it as more of a passive result.

I first thought you meant to say lift the inside hip (not thigh) and point it outside/drive it forward which creates good counter at all levels.

The video from @geepers shows the opposite as well - dragging it into the snow and that would be my choice. :thumb:

I don't think it helps with the rotational - if anything, it makes you maybe push the outside shoulder inside which would be rotating it?

It is however not easy and especially in longer turns when the focus is stronger on the outside ski and upper body and it feels like doing the splits, most increase the final angles by relaxing it more and tucking it away. It allows the hip to drop a little more.

@LiquidFeet - It's not a hip dump unless done too early. But when you approach max angles (created with tipping and foot action) and you want a little more, it's perfectly fine. But IMHO I would not put any focus on training it. It's fairly natural when one gets there... in fact it is harder to get there properly so too early focus on it would be negative. Both.because of hip dump and it tends to flatten the inside ski because boots have cuffs.
 
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dustyfog

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Long time since posting. Still working on getting better. Quick question for all the pros, as I read @Mike M’s post very closely and was thinking about how to adapt some of his lessons. But one key observation, why is it in the video you posted or the one by I thinking @geepers, the skiers do not look anything like these three - a very short clip from YouTube extracts, and personally I know will never ski like this trio but would like to get 15% of the way there. Any thoughts on the differences which are plain visually and what would be recommended for a terminal intermediate always working to improve ! Link to clip (on Vimeo) Just three skiers cruising merrily
 

Zirbl

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the skiers do not look anything like these three
Unfair comparisons notwithstanding (Hirscher's on a slalom ski so way more rebound anyway, and how many other skiers even competing with Ligety or Miller looked like them?), it's an interesting question - or at least it is to me, since it's something I've wondered myself, without necessarily comparing them to three of the best of all time - Rookie Academy skiers like Josh Duncan-Smith and Reilly Mcglashan have in common with racers that they ski with big edge angles, big inclination and get the hip low to the snow, without actually looking like racers. It's the same if you compare Tom Gellie with his racer mate Sam Robertson. (See videos of them skiing the same slope together.) Before the pros you asked answer, I'll have a go to test a theory: my take is that the movements themselves are similar but the timing is different. Racers freeskiing are still skiing a racing-type turn, with a much shorter pressuring phase starting at the rise line and accelerating out of the turn when they release that pressure, whereas the Rookie coaches carving groomers are trying to apply the pressure before the rise line (see @mike_m 's clarification on this) and are generally hanging onto the turn for longer too, checking speed by carving almost uphill - they're taking the skis a little bit past the point when they're shouting to be released, so they don't get the same energy out of the skis when they release the turn. Race turns are more eliptical - a long sweep before the fall line as they get shot across the hill and then quickly out of the fall line as the pressure comes, whereas the Rookie turns are rounder with more even pressure throughout the arc. In terms of their body positions, this difference in pressuring means the timing of their angulation is different. Now over to those who know what they're talking about.
 
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Dustyfog: Interesting that you don't see a similarity between Patrick's skiing and the videos of the three world cup skiers you posted. I see exactly the same movement patterns, perhaps with different timing, intensity or duration, depending on the turn radius, but the same fundamentals!

Zirbl: Also interesting that you see the Rookies coaches "taking the skis...past the point when they're shouting to be released." We were coached not to delay once the tail has gripped, steered and we feel the pressure coming back from the hill. Just the opposite of delaying, actually! Fascinating how folks watching the same turns perceive very different things are happening! Again much depends on turn radius and the intensity/speed being employed. There is a phrase I use often in my coaching. "Intent determines technique." How much versatility you can bring to your skiing, depending on terrain, conditions, intent, etc., will have much to do with your skill as a skier. You want lots of options in your technique toolbox! Trying to apply the exact same timing, intensity and duration to all turns is not a recipe for versatility and mastery of the sport. (I guess that's why a true expert never stops looking to improve!)

Zirbl: Lifting and crossing your inside thigh/knee toward your outside shoulder during the shaping phase need not preclude continuing the activity of supinating that light inside foot. This activity, advocated by the Rookies coaches, is not in conflict with anything Harald Harb advocates. Reilly has trained with Harald and Harald loves his skiing, and I train with Harald every season (I'll be with him in early December, actually). Perhaps you might try the wall exercise I suggested in post #16. I think you'll find the inside foot need not flatten.

Best!
Mike
 
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JESinstr

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Zirbl: Lifting and crossing your inside thigh/knee toward your outside shoulder during the shaping phase need not preclude continuing the activity of supinating that light inside foot. This activity, advocated by the Rookies coaches, is not in conflict with anything Harald Harb advocates. Reilly has trained with Harald and Harald loves his skiing, and I train with Harald every season (I'll be with him in early December, actually). Perhaps you might try the wall exercise I suggested in post #16. I think you'll find the inside foot need not flatten.

Best!
Mike
Run this video of Ted Legity in .25 slow motion. Great vantage point for observing the workings of the inside foot.


 

Zirbl

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I'm wrong on both counts then, thanks for correcting me. Mistakenly thought the Rookies and Gellie were closer re. the inside foot (see Gellie's stuff on pronating the inside foot as the knee comes up, without flattening the ski - not Harby at all).
Lifting and crossing your inside thigh/knee toward your outside shoulder during the shaping phase need not preclude continuing the activity of supinating that light inside foot.
Agree.

This activity, advocated by the Rookies coaches, is not in conflict with anything Harald Harb advocates.
While you're clearing stuff up for me - I thought HH's tipping of the inside foot was more of a lateral move (combined with a pull back with the hamstrings) than a forward diagonal roll. No?

Re. the length/shape of the turn, just had another look at the Bätz and Duncan-Smith clips in the thread. I was talking shite, they both release at 45 degrees to the fall line. I might have based my interpretation on videos where they're pure carving steep pitches and necessarily using a lot of space and having to control speed speed.
 
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Sledhead

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Another great thread from mike m. Markop’s and Chris V’s brief discussion on steering and separation got me thinking.

Unfortunately, terminology for ski technique has no reigning authority with which to precisely classify what we are trying to say. Sometimes we settle for what is most popular. Sometimes we go with the source we think has the most authority. Perhaps we will choose what best fits our overall understanding or model at the time. Sometimes we have to take from the established sciences of physics, engineering and biomechanics. Perhaps a publication, a video, a lesson, a website or an enlightening conversation. Sometimes, to cut through the veneer of dev program branding language and get down to the brass tax, we have to take the closest definition from Merriam Webster and re-apply it to the context of ski technique as Bob Barnes does with his definition of steering. Bob Barnes encyclopedia of skiing? Good descriptions of many technical terms that I would agree with. Sometimes we take from all those sources to settle on what we feel works best. The result? Almost anything in an online forum. It may even cause hesitancy in contributing from those who are very knowledgeable being fully aware that there will be disagreements no matter what is said or claimed. The following is how I understand the term “steering” and associated concepts.

The term steering is a word that commonly gets used loosely as there are three usages of the word in the context of ski technique. For the term “steering angle”, steering refers to the direction of the ski in reference to the direction of the CoM. Then there is “rotary steering” which refers to the change of the direction of the ski by twisting (skidding) and rotating it from the feet or the ski’s “center”. Then there is the least recognized form of the word in a carving context whereby steering is controlling the direction of the ski through tipping only. “Tip steering”? The more the ski tips, the more it bends; the more it bends, the more it changes direction. One constant in all three definitions is a reference to the direction of the ski (BoS). However, “pivoting” is not a constant among all the definitions of steering and, thus, only a method of steering. The steering angle is equally relevant/present regardless of carve/skid status. While, for some, the term steering may only represent a pivoting action, I would respond that the preponderance of evidence suggests otherwise.

Then there is an even more obscure term, even too obscure for Barnes expansive glossary, that is the ski’s “attack angle” which (for some) refers to the angle between the direction of the ski and the direction of the fall line which is very similar in effect to the steering angle in terms of overlapping attributes. The term “attack angle” has been used to mean “steering angle” by some. Because the angle of attack references the separate paths of the anatomy and that of the ground’s surface plane related to the fall line, it is more relevant to the physics of ground reaction force. Because the steering angle is only in reference to the BoS and CoM, it is more about the anatomy and its separation mobility. Similar to the lift coefficient resulting from the attack angle in golfing or aeronautics, the attack angle in skiing produces a lift coefficient from the ground reaction force created. The steeper the angle of attack, the more GRF resulting in more lift. While there may be only one steering angle per turn (if located at the intersection where the paths of the CoM and BoS cross), the attack angle can change throughout the turn (with tipping) as the fall line is always present underneath us regardless of its direction.

Bigger steering angles are more associated with shorter radius turns. The larger the turn, the smaller the steering angle. Big attack angles are equally achievable in both small and large radius turns but will be more abrupt in small turns. Bigger steering angles require more mobility for more separation between the CoM and BoS. While rotary separation may be most relevant regarding the development of these angles, all separation including flexion, extension, angulation and inclination in addition to rotation, the five fundamental movement patterns executed between the CoM and BoS, will be required for big steering angles. Skidding through the attack angle is going to muffle the GRF output compared to railing through it. (GRF in moguls an entirely different convo)

A good way to remember the attack angle is “attacking the fall line”. Because high performance skiing is entirely offensive in nature, the phrase, “attacking the hill” comes to mind. The more we steer against the fall line, vs with it, the bigger the attack angle and the more dynamic and aggressive the ground force produced. The more we turn away from the fall line, the more we are turning “into” the hill as we put our CoM in a gradual collision course vector with the rising surface plane of the ground. The more we steer away from the “fall” line, the more we steer into a “rise” line (not exactly the rise line in a race course which is based on the location of the gate). In freeskiing, the rise line is simply the opposite of the fall line and thus present at every location. In addition to the natural undulations of any typical slope, the calculation of ground force from attack angle vs ground force from random undulation would be difficult. The bigger the attack angle, the steeper the rise line generally encountered as a result. But a rise line in a fall away undulation can be canceled out or magnified with a rising undulation. Typically, we are always experiencing either a fall line or a rise line to some degree as our CoM is rarely traveling in the same exact direction as the plane of the ground underneath us. A bigger attack angle in the sagittal plane, the bigger CoM to slope collision angle will be in the vertical axis and will produce similar results of bouncing a ball off a sloped surface, hence ground reaction force. As the direction (vector) of our CoM loses altitude over the rising slope underneath us, we use that externally applied collision force, more specifically its vector of deflection, to create a passive output of gross motor flexion between the CoM and BoS. The higher the angle of attack, the more “ground force flexion” we will have to use. Ground force flexion is much quicker/snappier, more powerful and more inherently timed with the fundamental attributes of the turn than trying to initiate and manage the flexion ourselves. (referring to “dynamic” flexion or flexion “movement” that is traded off with an equal amount of extension within the same turn cycle and not “static” or “stance” flexion that is maintained throughout the entire turn cycle).

It is literally the direction of the ski (BoS), both in reference to the fall line and the CoM, their outcome of ground reaction force created and biomechanical separation required that will prescribe the duration, intensity, rate and timing of the rotary, flexion, extension, angulation and inclination that occurs between the CoM and BoS. For pure carved turns in particular, the DIRT that is actively/directly applied at tipping then becomes the DIRT that is passively output within the five fundamental movements of separation between the CoM and BoS. If we treat these ideally passive outcomes as active inputs, we are held back from experiencing the true benefits and power of a dynamically carved turn.
 

slow-line-fast

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Lift the inside thigh and cross it over toward the outside shoulder.​

Lots of discussion of this upthread.

Back on snow, I focused on this a bit, passively, to see whether it was happening or not. I found that past some depth, it was just happening. I didn’t feel that it would add much to try to do this proactively. But I guess if a skier were somehow blocking this movement *and* getting to edge angles where it should kick in, it could help to drill it actively.
 

Sledhead

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Help what?

I like a good new technical or developmental concept for skiing. Of course, because they are typically shared in sound bites, they become at least slightly reinterpreted each time they are shared, social media and online forums being a perfect example. I always find them interesting especially in terms of how they came about and, if so, how they became popular. I use a very basic technical model and a few fundamental frames of reference I will filter a proposed concept through to determine whether it is going to mean anything to me in the long run. Most of that revolves around the management of the relationship between the CoM and BoS. When that relationship is going well, a skier can do what they want. If the relationship is in the doghouse, so is the skier. This relationship is 95% of the reason someone may be skiing well or poorly regardless of almost anything else. That is pretty much the definition of the word, fundamental. It is the one PSIA fundamental that must be met in order for the other four to occur. Any instruction, dev concept, cue, movement pattern, tactic or technique recommended is going to need to have an effect on this relationship if it is going to have an effect on ski to snow surface interaction outcome. Otherwise, what else would it be for? Striking a pose? At least Madonna will be impressed.

Taking it further and coaching something in may include some understanding of how the duration, intensity, rate and timing of a movement pattern is plotted through a three phase turn cycle. Is the force derivative of a movement pattern supposed to be an active input with muscular intervention or a passive output powered by the forces of the turn, the ski or the ground? Is the movement an initiative of causation or just a passive correlation? If an input, is the corresponding output up or down in the chain? Is the movement concept related to flexion, extension, rotation, angulation and, or inclination of the relationship between the CoM and BoS? Does it describe these movements in the frontal/coronal, transverse/horizontal or sagittal plane or vertical axis? Is it more or less correlated with the open chain phase or the closed chain phase of the turn? Is it more or less associated with pivoting or carving? Perhaps less significant but more often ignored are the contexts of ability level, turn intent, terrain and ski type when discussing different developmental and performative concepts. All my context in that regard tends to align with advanced carved turns on groomers, the developmental environment most available and most transferable to all other skiing contexts where it is primarily the tactics that change rather than technique.

Oftentimes I find that a motor pattern that is a passive output in an advanced skier is taught as a direct input to intermediates. They also tend to be ones void of other attributes regarding the above analysis. This is a visual copy of a movement that must then be powered, timed and integrated by the skier vs an automatic outcome prodded by the forces of the turn. While there may be some developmental benefits of using direct inputs in order to experiment and find a correlating passive output, they can also serve as severe developmental impediments if these movements become ingrained as inputs. Too many inputs up and down the chain places a lot of responsibility onto the skier and eventually turns their mind into something between Pandora’s Box and a can of worms.
 
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