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California/Nevada 23/24 Palisades Parking Plans

fatbob

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How does this work with people who just show up with no knowledge of the reservation/fee system? They get all the way in on 89 and all the way from 89 to the parking lot. There, an 18 year old tells them sorry, you can't come in. After 10 minutes of calling bullshit, we've been coming here this week for 10 years, let me talk to your supervisor, etc, what? Traffic is backed up, other people are pissed. The 18 year old is having a breakdown because this is the 10th time this has happened today and it's only 8am.
ANPR. Ticket in the mail to your home address. Dunno what the sanction is with you for ignoring it but over here there are right shyster 3rd party operators ready to harass and intimidate people with a rigged system for overstaying at the supermarket etc.

Of course that doesn't help keep spaces free on the day for the actual reservations. I guess alternative might be barriers that only opens for a registered plate but then you'd need an exit loop for fails.
 

MarkG

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I'm in the 'yes, this needed to be done but this should have been publicized prior to season passes going on sale' camp. Full Pass was just basically hit with a major indirect increase, as the main reason to have it, blackout days, now incur a new fee.

With this prior knowledge, I'd have definitely gone full pass at SB with base ikon combo as opposed to the other way around. Feels a little late to make moves now.

@Pequenita's pay to reserve and forfeit for a no show option seems like a great compromise for this first year with the 'but NEXT YEAR expect to pay x on weekends and blackout days' clause.
 

MarkG

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also, if I'm paying $50 for a reservation, I'll be damned if it doesn't make me get to the parking lot earlier in order to maximize my time and location. If others feel the same, the 7 am traffic rush just got a little worse.


Finally...if carpools are free, well, here's to the new ski talk Palisades weekend warrior Carpool thread.
 
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Andy Mink

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also, if I'm paying $50 for a reservation, I'll be damned if it doesn't make me get to the parking lot earlier in order to maximize my time and location. If others feel the same, the 7 am traffic rush just got a little worse.
Yep. There are still crappy, back 40 spaces in paid parking.
 

fatbob

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Finally...if carpools are free, well, here's to the new ski talk Palisades weekend warrior Carpool thread.

You've still got to find somewhere to park the vehicles for pooling. If that's in Auburn or Reno maybe not a problem. In Truckee a big problem.
 

dbostedo

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I can actually envision a future where you're going to have a reservation to ski.

I'd hope that as we approach that point, there is some way to increase the number of resorts and terrain, and overall capacity.

During the 60’s, 70’s & even into the 80’s ski areas were constantly adding lifts & terrain as demand increased.

The answer is more terrain, new resorts

I didn't ski until the 90's and didn't pay attention to the market until probably 2015 or so; so I didn't go through that, but I'd sure hope there'd be a way to do something similar. Of course, with the apparent leaning of more and more people going to mega-resorts, and less and less at secondary resorts, opening more small resorts might not be a help. And opening more mega-resorts is much harder.

I'd say half of that 20%

I'd guess at least that much, just seeing the impact of good snow years and bad snow years in recent history. COVID and remote work changed things, of course, but any good snow season usually sees a good bump in skier days anyway. So I'd think a good chunk of the 20% was conditions based.

That said, the growth the last few seasons in Utah visits is large, and certainly has multiple factors. So maybe the upward line would have stayed on the same slope as 2021, to 2022, and the good snow year just pushed it even steeper/more growth? Here's the graph of NSAA Utah skier days over the last several years:

1685990250130.png
 

Wasatchman

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also, if I'm paying $50 for a reservation, I'll be damned if it doesn't make me get to the parking lot earlier in order to maximize my time and location. If others feel the same, the 7 am traffic rush just got a little wors
Thank you for contacting Alterra and providing us your valuable feedback. We at Alterra pride ourselves on providing the best value in skiing to our patrons. Arriving early and spending more time with us allows us to provide even more value to you. Since you will be arriving early, please consider our wonderful breakfast dining options while you wait for the lifts to open. And this year we are excited to announce a new avocado toast breakfast item attractively priced at $27.50 plus tax.

Furthermore, we are excited to let you know our reservation system will allow you to save your credit card details. So paying for your parking reservations will be very convenient.

Thanks again for your feedback and we are excited to see you on the slopes next season.
 

Andy Mink

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That said, the growth the last few seasons in Utah visits is large, and certainly has multiple factors. So maybe the upward line would have stayed on the same slope as 2021, to 2022, and the good snow year just pushed it even steeper/more growth? Here's the graph of NSAA Utah skier days over the last several years:

1685990250130.png
Of course Utah's growth somewhat mirrors the skier days. And the counties of Utah, Davis, Wasatch, and Salt Lake are among the fastest growing counties. The fastest growth by age is the 35-49 group, prime candidates for skiing and other outdoor recreation. I'd venture to reiterate the problem is not necessarily visitors or multi-passes but the booming local population with at least limited disposable income heading up the canyons.

In California the overall population is getting somewhat stagnant with the coastal population dropping like a rock and the interior staying fairly level. I think WFH is playing a bigger part in the problems surrounding the Tahoe region ski areas than is normally given credit but I've nothing to back that up.
 

Daniel

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I imagine that use is more spread out across the day instead of everyone trying to get to two spots by 9am. And no snow to make travel difficult. Unfortunately it's tough to spread use in the winter.


I wonder how many people came from back east or even parts of CO because conditions were poor at their home mountains? When it became apparent that UT was off the hook and staying that way it had to entice people.
Competition to park at trailheads in BCC and LCC in the summer, especially on weekends and during holiday periods, can be quite intense. I've seen very late arrivers at popular trailheads need to park roadside as much as a mile away. Lots and lots of those vehicles have out-of-state and/or Canadian province license plates. Here come parking fees at many popular trailheads in the Wasatch, including the Cottonwoods: https://www.sltrib.com/news/environment/2022/08/08/pay-play-is-coming-wasatch/

There were huge amounts of vehicles displaying CO license plates parked in the resort car parks and roadside this season in the Cottonwoods but it seems like there are every season. What caught my attention were those from Newfoundland/Labrador, Nova Scotia, Yukon, various Mexican states, Alaska (lots) and a greater-than-usual number of earth-roamer type vehicles with European number plates. Also present were the expected large amounts of Sprinter and Transit vans from all over the nation, many of which I would see on a regular basis throughout much of the season.
 

coldski

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Plenty of resorts in the West offer paid parking; however it is almost always accompanied by a workable and convenient mass transit option. For example, in Aspen there is a robust public bus system that goes to every ski area from the town. I also think cars with 4 or more people park for free. In that case paid parking becomes a luxury/conveneince that you pay for.

What we have in Tahoe is different. You cannot realistically use TART to get to Squaw on a weekend morning. This is why for many paid parking solution feels as an extortion, as you are forced to drive in. Again a season pass like parking permit (transferrable between cars, i.e. a rearview mirror placard) will alleviate the angst a bit, at least for some :).

I am pretty philosophical about it, the only other workable solution would have been a much more expensive season pass, so we would have ended up paying more either way. What I do not welcome is the hassle of making those parking reservations over and over.
Alterra owned Deer Valley - IKON/Base Plus ($1259/1149) for 7 days Reservations required Parking free. Full season pass $2890

Alterra owned Crystal Mountain IKON/Base ($1259/929) for 5/7 days Paid reserved parking.
Full season pass ($1899/3899 inc parking)

Alterra owned PT Prediction for 2024/2023 IKON/Base for 5/7 days Paid reserved parking.
Full season pass $2300
 

Andy Mink

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Alterra owned PT Prediction for 2024/2023 IKON/Base for 5/7 days Paid reserved parking.
Full season pass $2300
Are you saying you think Palisades will continue to be owned by Alterra but only offer Ikon holders 5 or 7 days and have a PT only season pass in the future?
 

MarkG

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And this year we are excited to announce a new avocado toast breakfast item attractively priced at $27.50 plus tax.

at least I get something useful beyond a Reservation in this case. Can you just throw the avocado toast in with the $50 as a package deal??
 

Alexzn

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Are you saying you think Palisades will continue to be owned by Alterra but only offer Ikon holders 5 or 7 days and have a PT only season pass in the future?
That is entirely possible. 1. They set the rules. 2. For a large portion of the 100,000 pass holders around PT, that will be just fine, as that's how much they ski in a season anyway and it will be still cheaper than buying individual lift tickets. 3. I believe that this is what they do at some other Ikon locations, such as Windham, NY. The difference, of course, is that PT is fully owned by Alterra which IS Ikon. But I can definitely see them bringing on a. Squaw-only pass with/without included parking (allowing one parking pass per family). Not clear what they can do with reservation system. I would still love to have a season parking placard.
 

Pat AKA mustski

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Alterra instituted paid parking/reservation system at BBMR, a few years ago. Initially, it was weekends and holidays only but, last season, they expanded it to include Fridays. Remote lots are still free and they shuttle people in. Everybody complained, but the upper lots are full every weekend and all holidays. I'm not sure what their premium season parking past costs because I never looked into it. Mammoth has had premium paid parking for a long time and you can't leave. If you leave for any reason, you lose your spot and they charge the next person. The reality is that we all love skiing far too much to boycott them so they can do whatever they want.
 

coldski

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Are you saying you think Palisades will continue to be owned by Alterra but only offer Ikon holders 5 or 7 days and have a PT only season pass in the future?

Yes I think Alterra will replicate the Crystal model. A couple of years ago an IKON pass got unlimited skiing and non reserved free parking. Today a Legend pass (inc IKON) is $1899 and gets unlimited skiing (but no parking) If you want season long reserved parking in the VIP lot it costs an extra $2000

If this approach is already working at a traffic plagued big mountain resort (Crystal) next to a big city (Seattle) with no (well one Snoqualmie) other IKON resorts nearby why not do it at PT
 

Daniel

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(I only skied for a few hours at Solitude on a Friday morning before driving back to Nevada. I had to pay $35 to park that day since I was driving and skiing solo. When I skied there another day later in the season, I parked for free at Brighton and went back and forth on the Sol-Bright Trail. However, skiing at Brighton did involve making a reservation.)
The Solitude parking-fee-avoidance strategy you (and many others) utilized this past season won't be as rewarding going forward. Beginning this coming season, Brighton is implementing a paid reservation to park scheme from opening through closing day. The fee for a parking reservation will be either $20 or $25, depending upon day of week and holiday period/non-holiday period. The amount one would save next season using your strategy won't be known until Solitude announces their parking fee structure for next season. If you have an IKON pass, you will still need to make a reservation to ski/ride at Brighton.

 

4ster

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I am not as informed about other places but in the Cottonwoods the ability to expand terrain is limited. The forest service controls it and the Cottonwoods are way more valuable than simply lift served downhill skiing. I hate the crowds but I'm generally against further terrain expansion in the Cottonwoods. I'd like to preserve things that exist beyond simply lift served downhill skiing.

As far as creating parking, the Cottonwood ski resorts would like to add multi-story parking but they can't get rhe permitting from the forest service. The reasons why the forest service have been denying these requests is beyond the scope of this post but suffice it to say there are good reasons for it.
It is public land, the public wants to ski/snowboard! Maybe the CC’s aren’t the place for new resorts but I do recall a pretty recent Snowbird expansion (maybe Mary’s area?) plan that sorta made some sense. The interconnect from PCMR even begins to make some sense now.
Wasatch Peaks private resort even though on private land could’ve been public had the county commissioners or whoever grants permits wanted it that way but greed probably played a roll in that one. At build out l would guess it could easily handle 5-7000 skiers a day.
Mayflower also sounds like they want to be a bit exclusive but my impression is that it will be public.
I think there are higher ups at Powder Mountain who would like to see it at least partially privatized, hopefully that never comes to fruition.
Nordic Valley would like to expand.
Snowbasin has an approved master plan that includes some terrain expansion with obvious room for more yet current management does not seem interested as long as the can continue to oversell & only make small superficial investments.

l have pointed out other historic California unrealized resort proposals in another thread last year. ie; Mineral King, another north of Truckee & Galena in Nevada above Reno.
 

Wasatchman

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It is public land, the public wants to ski/snowboard! Maybe the CC’s aren’t the place for new resorts but I do recall a pretty recent Snowbird expansion (maybe Mary’s area?) plan that sorta made some sense.
Except the vast majority of the public does not ski. The last data I have seen is only 3% of Utahns skis. Terrain expansion in the Cottonwoods significantly detracts from the natural aesthetic of nearly every other non ski related activity and is very seasonal to boot. The Cottonwoods already have a lot of ski terrain developed, let's leave some for backcountry skiers, hikers, rock climbers, photographers, snowshoers, etc. Even a lot of avid skiers like me are opposed to significant further Cottonwoods expansion.

A connect linking PC with Cottonwoods resorts has already been proposed and lost. Meanwhile, UDOT now has their hands full with their ill advised plan for a gondola up LCC. That's going to be a battle royale with the opposition lined up against it including overwhelming opposition from Utah residents. They may be able to push it through but it's going to be an absolute dogfight every step of the way.

Snowbird has approval for expansion into Mary Ellen Gulch and it's a longer-term possibility. But the cost would be very significant given the environmental mitigation they would have to do dealing with the toxic mining tailings in the area and the water shed nature of the canyon.

Mayflower will be public and is likely to ultimately be a Deer Valley expansion. Unfortunately a lot of that area is lower elevation with little natural snow.

It's possible for some new ski operations in the Oquirrh Mountains. That might happen at some point but right now it would be a risky financial proposition.

Edit: as far as Wasatch Peaks, my understanding is the local commissioners believe a private ski community was far more desirable for most residents than a public resort. My understanding is the vast majority of the surrounding residents want to preserve the current semi-rural feel as much as possible, and a private ski community fit this objective much better. My understanding is that the local community strongly supports the outcome of a private, low density Wasatch Peaks over a large public resort. Again, only a small minority of the public skis/rides. Wasatch Peaks is closer to your neck of the woods, so I'll defer to you if I am misinformed of this situation. But that's my understanding.
 
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Andy Mink

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If that's at or below Sky Tavern it might have a tough go being mostly east facing and lower elevation. Galena Creek Park is at lake level, about 6,200'. Snow comes slowly and melts quickly.
 
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