3 Ski Demo and Technique Description

[slow-line-fast]

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I usually ski differently on the slalom race ski than on the mogul ski. My smoothest style is what you see me do in the black outfit 2012 shots. That's with flat skis and it is the most physical effort of any method I use. Any shots you saw that were earlier than that would have probably been the same path for the skis through the moguls. This was more of a world cup style than what you see me do on the slalom race skis these days... I was just thinking this year that I might like to lower my stance again...

How do these skis handle differently in bumps? I have a SL ski but not a bump ski. I like bumps but can hardly find any (too much grooming )

 

[jimtransition]

geepers:

Thanks. I look forward to it too. I'm getting ideas from this thread. I might even repeat some of what I've said here.

jimtransition:

One has absolutely nothing to do with the other. Look to the quote I posted from Ron LeMaster for the answer to your question. It's about defined styles versus what else there is. It's about black and white thinking.

I have read the quote, and it seems to clash with you deriding people choosing to ski a certain way.

 

[the iliad]

jimtransition:

I have read the quote, and it seems to clash with you deriding people choosing to ski a certain way.

No. In theory someone could ski a certain way but also not be narrow minded. The only people who I think are wrong are the people who think that there is only one way to do things. There are many people who think that if you don't look exactly like a Japanese technical skier then you are inherently skiing worse than a Japanese technical skier and are doing it wrong. These people are all over the internet and the strictly defined style is somewhat of a demonstration of this way of thinking in itself. I guess that's the popular Japanese way. I don't think America is a culture that thrives on conformity. I think it's fitting if American skiing is more about individualism. You sometimes see similar black white thinking among other people who strictly subscribe to other styles. I have seen people who ski a certain way that is from a book and it holds them back in the moguls, or somewhere. A ski school mogul style can be a limitation in the moguls, for example, or at least it's always looked that way to me.

slow-line-fast:

How do these skis handle differently in bumps? I have a SL ski but not a bump ski.

The slalom race ski is probably better in most moguls up to a certain speed. A mogul ski is made for cutting a more direct path, and it's kind of like it fits between big moguls better. A mogul ski is probably easier to deal with in the biggest of moguls. Slalom race skis are really good in the moguls.

 

[Sanity]

I have read the quote, and it seems to clash with you deriding people choosing to ski a certain way.

Did he deride them? I did a perspective test to see if it's true. I like mogul skiing, so I took all his comments about Japanese skiers and switched it to mogul skiing. If those comments bug me, then I would have to agree that it's derision.

"I don't agree that we all need to try to duplicate each other as in the Mogul competition style or whatever."

"I assure you that I will not ever copy the Mogul comp style. Or at least not all the time. I can do all those short turns etc.. I have never wanted them in my videos. My brother and I don't like the look of some of the really popular "mogul comp" styles. It's more like sometimes when we watch the sport change, we are sitting around wondering what the hell everyone is thinking. lol"

"The best racers do not look very much like every Mogul comp skier, in my opinion. I also don't think that the best racers necessarily look much like one another. There are contests of certain styles. A Japanese technical competition is a contest to see who can be master of one style. A mogul competition in moguls is simply another. I have never even seen a person in Mammoth that tries to look like a Mogul skier. This begs some thinking about what is "different" and what is "technically correct" or what is "normal" and what is "arbitrary"."

Do these statements about mogul skiers get me upset? If they did, I'd be in for constant aggravation, because I hear those statements all the time. There was a period of time where it was nearly impossible to post anything about mogul skiing without having to hear how someone hates the style. That would never get a fight from me. You're allowed to like whichever style you want. You're allowed to ski however you want. The fight would begin when someone justifies their dislike with some absolutism based on myths.

Those statements are not derision. It's actually more a defense against derision. Skiing is very much subject to fashion. You get different groups following their own fashions. Ultimately, some people in a particular group try to claim that if you don't look like them, you're no good. They have trouble distinguishing between their fashion and their skill. Someone like Blake with an immense amount of skill is constantly bombarded by people who wish to criticize because of their competitive ego, and since there really isn't much to criticize with raw skill, it becomes about fashion. You don't look like me, therefore you're no good. Blake is right, when people are good, other people will look to criticize. Blake does not submit. He knows he's good, and he doesn't hide that he knows he's good which gives an air of arrogance that strikes deep into the heart of his critics and summons up the most riled and virulent responses. The competitive ego attacking their peers recoils at the sight of arrogance, and the motivations to criticize are compounded.

What we're witnessing is the online evolution of a very talented skier that isn't really part of any competition or fashion group. Without protections of built-in hierarchy of such groups and with enough intellectualism to differentiate trends from capabilities, he sticks to his guns despite the ire of the egotistical conformists. It makes for fascinating and entertaining forum content. Still though, it's better if we all get along, and Lemaster's quote is absolutely important for understanding, tolerating, and learning from an outsider with incredible skill, "There is no one, best type of turn. There are many. There is no one, best type of ski performance. There are many. There is no one, best combination of body movements. There are many." As various groups judge Blake by their fashions, Blake responds by saying, I don't like that style, that's not what I'm aiming to do. That should be the end of it, but ego doesn't let go, and thus begins the jostling to become the master like peacocks showing their feathers to assert dominance and attract mates.

Typically, the next phase of the argument begins with statements about how their fashion isn't fashion, but instead essential skill. It's hard to dispute without metrics for success. What can we say? Hands down, Blake will beat anyone here down a mogul course with any type of measurement regarding speed and balance. How would he stack up against Razie in a slalom course? I'd pay to see that race. Sounds like Blake would get crushed in a Japanese technical competition unless he started training for it, but he's not interested in it. For example, why should a ski racer be judged by a mogul competition if it's not their chosen discipline? You're telling me that I have to ski like a Japanese technical skier to be good, but I don't want to ski that way, and there are other great skiers that ski differently. So, I say I don't like to ski that way, and you call that derision. It's not derision to state your preferences.

 

[the iliad]

Wow, thanks for that great post Sanity!

Someone like Blake with an immense amount of skill is constantly bombarded by people who wish to criticize because of their competitive ego, and since there really isn't much to criticize with raw skill, it becomes about fashion.

Thanks, I loved this complementary sentence, and I think that I really like the term "raw skill".

The competitive ego attacking their peers recoils at the sight of arrogance, and the motivations to criticize are compounded.

LOL Yes, I think this is part of my problem

What we're witnessing is the online evolution of a very talented skier that isn't really part of any competition or fashion group.

The evolution that I'm going for is one that includes more methods over time instead of settling on one set of methods. More inclusion instead of less. ...and it takes a lot of time to get a lot of video.

...and thus begins the jostling to become the master like peacocks showing their feathers to assert dominance and attract mates.

LOL!

Typically, the next phase of the argument begins with statements about how their fashion isn't fashion, but instead essential skill.

Yes, this is what I've been getting at.

How would he stack up against Razie in a slalom course? I'd pay to see that race. Sounds like Blake would get crushed in a Japanese technical competition unless he started training for it, but he's not interested in it.

I can only imagine that I would lose on a slalom course. I've never touched a slalom gate in my life. As for the Japanese technical style, I am already planning to get that type of short turn on video next season, but I don't know when I will put it online. I only really want it for my instructional video. I might finish that video next season, or I might finish it three seasons from now or something. It depends on how things go and how much video I get in a year. As for Japanese long turns, I don't personally see any reason to duplicate that at all. I don't really want to look that way, and I also think I'm inherently destined to not really look that way as a taller person.

 

[LiquidFeet]

....Slalom race skis are really good in the moguls.

Curious. Would you still say this if you were talking about New England polished-to-a-shine ice bumps, medium sized, aka thawed and refrozen and then skied even more, with surfaces hard enough to catch tip and tail easily if you are off from your target by an inch or so?

 

[the iliad]

Curious. Would you still say this if you were talking about New England polished-to-a-shine ice bumps, medium sized, aka thawed and refrozen and skied afterwards, hard enough to catch tip and tail easily if you are off by an inch or so?

I would be more likely to say it under those circumstances. I would definitely rather be on my slalom race skis in those conditions. There are only really two specific things that the mogul ski is much better at...
1) Going at really high speeds
2) Extremely large moguls, like those ones where your knees hit your chest.

In strange, awkwardly shaped moguls, or bad snow conditions, I prefer the slalom race ski.

 

[LiquidFeet]

I would be more likely to say it under those circumstances. I would definitely rather be on my slalom race skis in those conditions. There are only really two specific things that the mogul ski is much better at...
1) Going at really high speeds
2) Extremely large moguls, like those ones where your knees hit your chest.

In strange, awkwardly shaped moguls, or bad snow conditions, I prefer the slalom race ski.

Can you explain the performance benefits of the slalom race ski? I'm assuming you mean FIS.

 

[4ster]

I've never touched a slalom gate in my life.

You don’t know what you’re missing ! A slalom course can take a boring day on mediocre snow & uninteresting terrain & turn it epic!!!

It can also provide a whole new paradigm & outlook on the ski turn .
I think you would like it!

 

[the iliad]

That's cool 4ster! Maybe I'll try it sometime : )

LiquidFeet:

Can you explain the performance benefits of the slalom race ski? I'm assuming you mean FIS.

Well, I think it's partly because the sidecut is actually designed to make a turn that is about the size of a mogul. If you let the tip go into the bump it can just about turn the right shape with no effort as it bends. In a funky spot, or a tight spot, you can unweight while keeping the tips down and carve a shorter radius using the front of the ski. ---- I don't know if you watched the talking part of the video that I started this thread with, but this is what it's about. I discuss the differences between the mogul ski and the slalom race ski (and one other). You might try watching it if you didn't see it. That's the video called "3 Ski Demo...".

They're not FIS, but I was never clear on what the actual difference was in the year that I bought them. I might like to try FIS if there's a difference, but I usually have a pretty light touch when I'm skiing.

 

[slow-line-fast]

They're not FIS, but I was never clear on what the actual difference was in the year that I bought them. I might like to try FIS if there's a difference, but I usually have a pretty light touch when I'm skiing.

Try them, I'd be surprised if you didn't prefer them. There are many threads here on consumer SL vs FIS SL, and various types of FIS SL (this being a much smaller difference). Higher performance and narrower sweet spot. Light touch with good technique is not a problem at all. They are heavy to carry around and yet feel very light on your feet to ski (when the skiing is dialed in).


Re: Japanese technical competition and style, I presume some of the convergence of that style is just a consequence of it being a judged event. Like the turn scores part of mogul comps, there would be a tendency to adjust to 'what the judges are looking for'. It doesn't follow that those training and/or competing with that style presume that this is the only correct way to ski (unless they say that's what they think).

 

[the iliad]

slow-line-fast:

Try them, I'd be surprised if you didn't prefer them...

They sound cool. Thanks! I might try them this year.

 

[the iliad]

Me:

They sound cool. Thanks! I might try them this year.

I'm having second thoughts about it... Because I've been thinking that it's hard to imagine anything that would work better for my style in the moguls than my consumer model slalom skis, or whatever they are. Honestly I'm not so sure what they are, but they're not stiff.

slow-line-fast:

Japanese technical competition and style, I presume some of the convergence of that style is just a consequence of it being a judged event. Like the turn scores part of mogul comps, there would be a tendency to adjust to 'what the judges are looking for'.

I really agree with this. This adds to why it wouldn't make sense to subscribe to this as the one 'be all, end all' set of moves.

slow-line-fast:

It doesn't follow that those training and/or competing with that style presume that this is the only correct way to ski

It might not make sense... and I've certainly been trying to make the point that it doesn't make sense to me, but I think there are a lot of people who do believe that there is one complete and final style. This is what I've been getting at.

 

[Sanity]

Me:

I'm having second thoughts about it... Because I've been thinking that it's hard to imagine anything that would work better for my style in the moguls than my consumer model slalom skis, or whatever they are. Honestly I'm not so sure what they are, but they're not stiff.

I've had troubles with some non-mogul skies releasing the turn. In some bump shapes it's ok, but in other bump shapes the bump basically puts the ski on edge even when the ski is not tipped. Then it's not easy to get the edge to let go for a quick edge to edge transition. The Dynastar twister does not have this problem. It grips when I want it to grip, but very quick edge to edge when I want. I guess it sort of has a bigger smear range like rocker, but grips better than rocker once you exceed that smear range.

 

[the iliad]

to be fair, Blake does show quite a bit of athleticism and talent, so he could surprise and impress me again on that

 

[GB_Ski]

What I really appreciate your skiing is how fast you can release or unweight your skis in those tight spots (0:02 - 0:05). I've always have issue with that. On a magical day, I maaaayyyybbbeee able to carve like you for a run or two. But I have no chance in the tight spots. I would sort of end up like your video at 2:23-2:26.

Any suggestion there?

 

[bud heishman]

Liked the bump skiing! #1 video on the Heads shows the skis working well on the snow however looking up the body, as mentioned, the shoulders and arms are rotating through turn completion. With that particular ski and the tail flair, as well as the snow conditions, allows you to get away with that movement. On harder and/or steeper pitches it ain't gonna work so well. One of the PSIA skiing fundamentals is turn the feet and legs below a stable quiet upper body.

 

[the iliad]

Liked the bump skiing! #1 video on the Heads shows the skis working well on the snow however looking up the body, as mentioned, the shoulders and arms are rotating through turn completion. With that particular ski and the tail flair, as well as the snow conditions, allows you to get away with that movement. On harder and/or steeper pitches it ain't gonna work so well. One of the PSIA skiing fundamentals is turn the feet and legs below a stable quiet upper body.

Look at the video that's 3 posts above on this page 6.

Any suggestion there?

I like a jump turn, type of turn in which I push off of the uphill ski. I don't know if everyone knows what I mean or not.

 

[the iliad]

#1 video on the Heads

We're watching this new video at this point.

 

[Chris V.]

No hesitation. Right into the next turn. Inspiring.