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[LiquidFeet]

One can shorten one leg and lengthen the other. That would be a blend of both. It's probably is the most used manner of starting any turn.

For lurkers reading along, it's a great exercise to try isolating each of these initiations when you get out on snow this season. Try lengthening/straightening/extending your uphill leg between turns, as you traverse, without doing anything else at all, just letting that one isolated move start the new turn. Link turns this way run after run. **Avoid flexing the other leg until both skis point down the hill. Be aware of how tall you get with this extension initiation.

Then try shortening/bending/flexing the downhill leg and not doing anything else at all, just letting that one isolated move start the new turn. Link turns this way. **Avoid extending the other leg until just before the skis point straight downhill, so you can be sure that single movement is the one-and-only cause of your skis turning to go downhill. Be aware of how low you can keep your head with this flexion initiation.

Work on both in isolation until you are sure you are actually making turns happen with this one movement by itself. The hard part is not doing anything else at all except that one isolated movement until the skis have turned downhill. Muscle memory will want to kick in and start the turn the regular way.

 

[Chris V.]

There's a 3rd way. Which is to get outside heavy (Tom Gellie definition) through increased angulation late in the turn or release at the hips whilst maintaining the edges of the current turn. ...For snow boarders it's the primary means of transition since they don't have inside/outside leg.

Word.

 

[geepers]

Word.

 

[LiquidFeet]

^^ ... from Urban Dictionary:

 

[Chris V.]

^^ ... from Urban Dictionary:
View attachment 115932

Add:

4) Something snowboarders would say.

 

[Prosper]

@Uke, I was looking for this blog post but couldn't find it on Tuesday. Here it is. See how Tom Gellie says gravity can play a role!

how-to-create-larger-edge-angle

It seems like the falling over sensation Tom is describing in this blog post would result in big extension/up-down movements rather than a retraction/flexion ones, especially with the below illustration and explanation. How does this translate to on snow movements?

Visualise your ski pole standing upright then falling over. The first half of falling the handle of the pole (like your head) moves mostly sideways with a little bit of down. The second half of that fall the handle accelerates more downwards than sideways. So you would be experiencing similar motions to the ski pole. The first part feeling relatively slower to tilt, the second half of moving inside the turn is faster as gravity is able to pull you to earth more easily. Closer to free falling. Which is why this part feels the best but is the scariest and hardest to do! As long as the ski bends and the edges hold turning forces will hold you up and keep you balanced. Thats where trust in the process and practice comes in.

 

[Mike King]

It seems like the falling over sensation Tom is describing in this blog post would result in big extension/up-down movements rather than a retraction/flexion ones, especially with the below illustration and explanation. How does this translate to on snow movements?

Visualise your ski pole standing upright then falling over. The first half of falling the handle of the pole (like your head) moves mostly sideways with a little bit of down. The second half of that fall the handle accelerates more downwards than sideways. So you would be experiencing similar motions to the ski pole. The first part feeling relatively slower to tilt, the second half of moving inside the turn is faster as gravity is able to pull you to earth more easily. Closer to free falling. Which is why this part feels the best but is the scariest and hardest to do! As long as the ski bends and the edges hold turning forces will hold you up and keep you balanced. Thats where trust in the process and practice comes in.

@Prosper, indeed, this is why Tom says you have to learn to fall -- the body's defense mechanisms will try to intervene with an up movement. In his first lesson with a student taking her from intermediate to advanced carving over 3 days, he coaches her to think of that lateral movement being a movement not laterally, but DOWN the hill.

 

[Steve]

I can attest to the falling being a good feeling. I'm still working on the timing of it, but it's all part of the body go one way, the legs go another way. When I get it right up UB is just flowing down the mountain.

 

[Uke]

I sometimes wish I could understand this falling feeling that everyone talks about but unfortunately I never feel like I'm falling when I ski unless I'm falling.

uke

 

[Steve]

It's not a feeling of falling Uke. I'm sure you've heard the analogy that when we walk we are falling forward? Each step is a fall forward, but we've learned to harness that energy and utilize it for forward movement.

The concept being it's a gravity sport. We're not only sliding down the hill but we're plunging down it!

Instead of falling it could even be throwing ourselves down the hill, like Bob Barne's medicine ball animation.

 

[Uke]

I can attest to the falling being a good feeling. I'm still working on the timing of it, but it's all part of the body go one way, the legs go another way. When I get it right up UB is just flowing down the mountain.

It was the bold line that prompted my reply.

An interesting point here. I long ago stopped thinking of skiing being about 'down the hill'. For me its about 'going there' and there is seldom the bottom of the hill but somewhere across the hill 'over there'. I eventually get to the bottom and then there becomes the ski lift to get back to the top where I can start picking out a new set of theres to go to.

At this point I just have to say "So there"

uke

 

[geepers]

@Prosper, indeed, this is why Tom says you have to learn to fall -- the body's defense mechanisms will try to intervene with an up movement. In his first lesson with a student taking her from intermediate to advanced carving over 3 days, he coaches her to think of that lateral movement being a movement not laterally, but DOWN the hill.

Defense mechanism may not be an up movement. Another point from TG is that angulation is also used to restore lateral stability. Do too much too early and inclination does not develop.

 

[LiquidFeet]

I sometimes wish I could understand this falling feeling that everyone talks about but unfortunately I never feel like I'm falling when I ski unless I'm falling.

uke

It's like you're on a roller coaster where the coaster sluggishly grinds its way to the top of the track, then over you go, into free fall. That first feeling of free fall is what skiing this way can give you. Turns with a topple of sorts can be done without that feeling too. If you angulate to drop the hip and not so much the head, you'll diminish the sense of free fall. It's the unsupported free drop of the head (and inner ears) that makes that sensation so memorable.

 

[Prosper]

For me, especially on steeper terrain an extension movement results in a very brief and exhilarating sensation of falling until my new outside edge starts to engage. With a retraction move it feels more like weightlessness right when my skis are directly under my COM and less like falling. Not sure if that helps clarify it but it's the best way I can explain the sensations I'm feeling.

 

[geepers]

For me, especially on steeper terrain an extension movement results in a very brief and exhilarating sensation of falling until my new outside edge starts to engage. With a retraction move it feels more like weightlessness right when my skis are directly under my COM and less like falling. Not sure if that helps clarify it but it's the best way I can explain the sensations I'm feeling.

I think there's a missing ingredient here. If the torso and feet are on the same trajectory when you flex then all you'll get is the small feeling of light feet. But nothing else as everything is on the same path.

To get the biggest sensation of toppling what I do is:

1. Keep completing the last turn - skis still on the old edges and coming back under the body
2. Maintain separation and angulation - even increase angulation so the torso will begin to topple out
3. Release the upper body at the hip - the feet and hips are on diverging paths.
4. And then (a split second later) flex.

At that point what I feel is my torso travelling across and but more down the hill than the feet. The sensation is unmistakably toppling. Angles are generated very quickly and extension of the legs happens automatically.

Not claiming that I've mastered this and there's a tonne of room for improvement. When I get it right it has allowed me to pure carve a few more pitches than I could previously without getting runaway speed increase. (Which is my rough test for how well anything is working.)

I've eased into this little by little on appropriate terrain as things can happen very, very quickly. It does require commitment and I'm more comfortable in small increments learning how to manage the forces/feelings than large ballsy pieces of bravado.
(Gellie has this idea of crashing your way to higher angles. I do not subscribe to this idea and wisely he does suggest a discretionary approach for those of us with higher levels of wear and tear.)

 

[LiquidFeet]

1. Keep completing the last turn - skis still on the old edges and coming back under the body
2. Maintain separation and angulation - even increase angulation so the torso will begin to topple out
3. Release the upper body at the hip - the feet and hips are on diverging paths.
4. And then (a split second later) flex.

Quick question. "And then (a split second later) flex." Flex what?

 

[LiquidFeet]

I think there's a missing ingredient here. If the torso and feet are on the same trajectory when you flex then all you'll get is the small feeling of light feet. But nothing else as everything is on the same path....

Exactly. Very well written. If the goal is to develop high edge angles in the top of the new turn, one should not allow the path of the upper body to line up with the path of the feet at the end of the old turn. The essential thing to keep the two lines from matching is to keep completing the old turn on old edges to get the skis back up under the body, your #1 above.

@geepers, I find the next three things on your list happen rather unconsciously. Maybe this applies to my turns and not others' turns, though.
--Getting the skis to come back up under the body requires both legs to flex, the outside one more-so. This takes care of #4.
--The intent of continuing to complete the turn is to get the feet to move under and uphill of the body, which leaves the torso uninvolved... so it stays pointing where its momentum wants to take it. That's #2.
--With the leg flexion and that separation/counter, the body angulates without conscious attention as the skis arrive under the body. That's #3

Do you find that # 2,3,4 happens unconsciously as well? I'm interested in where the focus is for others doing this.

 

[Mike King]

Exactly. Very well written. If the goal is to develop high edge angles in the top of the new turn, one should not allow the path of the upper body to line up with the path of the feet at the end of the old turn. The essential thing to keep the two lines from matching is to keep completing the old turn on old edges to get the skis back up under the body, your #1 above.

@geepers, I find the next three things on your list happen rather unconsciously. Maybe this applies to my turns and not others' turns, though.

@LiquidFeet, I think your description is one way that toppling can occur, but I'd make a a couple of adjustments to your description.

--Getting the skis to come back up under the body requires both legs to flex, the outside one more-so. This takes care of #4.

I don't find it necessary to flex both legs, although one can certainly do so.

--The intent of continuing to complete the turn is to get the feet to move under and uphill of the body, which leaves the torso uninvolved... so it stays pointing where its momentum wants to take it. That's #2.

Being picky here, but it isn't that the torso is uninvolved -- it is that the torso is released from its arc while the feet and skis remain on their arc. So, the torso is actually involved, even if passively. Higher performance is to actively move the torso off of it's path -- that's what @geepers is referring to as releasing the hip as well as increasing angulation.

--With the leg flexion and that separation/counter, the body angulates without conscious attention as the skis arrive under the body. That's #3

What I find is that the movement of the body to the outside ski is what initially gives the push or impulse across the hill but also begins the process of releasing the body from it's arc.

Do you find that # 2,3,4 happens unconsciously as well? I'm interested in where the focus is for others doing this.

I'm working on getting this to be autonomous. Then it will be unconscious!

Mike

 

[LiquidFeet]

....What I find is that the movement of the body to the outside ski is what initially gives the push or impulse across the hill but also begins the process of releasing the body from it's arc....

@Mike King I think we are talking about different versions of this release.

Intention plays a big part in the differences between the turn initiation that you describe and the one I describe. I intend to bring my feet back up under me and to have them continue to up-behind me. See Bob Barnes' "infinity move" diagram for a graphic depiction.

This means my upper body/CoM continues on its path by default as I bring the skis back up behind/uphill of me. I don't do anything with my upper body; the focus is exclusively on the feet/skis/legs. My edges flip by default as the platform disappears and the two lines, one for the feet and one for the CoM, criss-cross, and the new turn is upon me. I don't have to "move the body to the outside ski" to give "the push or impulse across the hill" or to begin "the process of releasing the body from its arc." There is no push nor impulse. That's the significant difference between your description and mine.

We are doing something different.

 

[geepers]

Flex what?

Both legs. Dbl flex.

Exactly. Very well written. If the goal is to develop high edge angles in the top of the new turn, one should not allow the path of the upper body to line up with the path of the feet at the end of the old turn. The essential thing to keep the two lines from matching is to keep completing the old turn on old edges to get the skis back up under the body, your #1 above.

@geepers, I find the next three things on your list happen rather unconsciously. Maybe this applies to my turns and not others' turns, though.
--Getting the skis to come back up under the body requires both legs to flex, the outside one more-so. This takes care of #4.
--With the leg flexion and that separation/counter, the body angulates without conscious attention as the skis arrive under the body. That's #3

Do you find that # 2,3,4 happens unconsciously as well? I'm interested in where the focus is for others doing this.

I think what you are asking is - do they blend?

Yes. Increased angulation is happening and skis are on their path back but the actual trigger for me in that type of turn is a small relaxing at the hips.

There's a Gellie vid in which he uses a stretch band as a proxy for "centrifugal" forces in a turn which explains it well.
https://video.bigpictureskiing.com/programs/collection-wvlicrpkr34?cid=1060590 about the 7:30 point in that segment of the Retraction Turns - Getting off the MerryGoRound.

Special note - that segment is SFJ (Safe For @James ). It was made in winter and he's fully clothed.