A medium is not a medium

[AmyPJ]

@Tricia, did you ever cut the bars shorter? How long are the crank arms on the Habit? What drivetrain?

 

[Slim]

The nice thing with bikes, unlike ski boots, is that millimeters really are millimeters.
2 98mm lasts can still fit very different, and you won’t know until you try.

But two bikes with the same stack and reach, will fit the same (as long as head angle is very close and seat can be set in the same position fore aft).

I am glad to see people/brands starting to universally use stack and reach.

The one thing that we need to remember to pay attention to with mtb’s is the relationship between the two. Given how slack mtb’s are these days, the same frame fit and geomtry with significantly increase reach as the headtube gets shorter and vice versa. Without it changing the fit!

Since most letter sizes have change a lot over the past few model years, the best quick comparison is the “frame diagonal”:
calculate the distance from BB to top of head tube by hitting stack and reach with Pythagoras. This really should be what frame sizes are based on.

 

[scott43]

See.....you just proved it. Marketing towards XC bike, DH bike, Trail and so on, each has to be different to carve out their niche. Way stick to a standard methodology to easy for the average customer. Allows for the up sell. I was in sales and marketing way to long.

See I'm normally a curmudgeon and would agree, however, XC and DH bikes are spectacularly different. And the sizing methodologies are pretty disparate as well. So the S/M/L thing kinda makes sense..because the bikes are not really able to be "measured" quite the same. Reach and Stack kinda work..but that's not easy for average Joe/Jane to understand and it assumes some stuff around seat and head angle and headset/seatpost. Sizing is just a bug these days..the days of diamond frames with horizontal top tubes, the standard for 70 years..died in the 90's...

 

[cantunamunch]

Reach and Stack kinda work..but that's not easy for average Joe/Jane to understand and it assumes some stuff around seat and head angle and headset/seatpost.

Exactly. Reach and stack fall under the same "I've always" and "I've never" @Philpug was pointing out back in post 4 - especially since they're not directly correlated to body dimensions, and particularly since body dimensions are not linearly independent.

@Slim's hypotenuse approach is actually better for figuring out grip-to-pedals spacing than reach/stack combo. Though it still doesn't actually correlate to any body dimension.

 

[Tricia]

The problem with inventory crisies is that you never get to actually try the bike you want for size before you commit and order.

That is exactly how I ended up with the large-ish Medium.

As I referred in the OP, its on me because I made some assumptions based on my previous experience with a few different Cannondale models.
I should have poured over geometry configuration, but instead I hastily ordered while it was available.

 

[cantunamunch]

I should have poured over geometry configuration, but instead I hastily ordered while it was available.

Did you autopsy the geo after the fact and figure out where it went wrong?

I think e-bikes are going to be a fourth category of fit - just because people are not used to thinking about steering and control at e-bike descent speeds.

#learningopportunity
#populatetheSSwithboundarycases

 

[scott43]

I should have poured over geometry configuration,

That's ok..it's an affliction you probably don't want to have!

 

[scott43]

2019 Habit

Geometry Geeks

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2020 Habit Neo

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geometrygeeks.bike

So you're looking at at least 15mm in the Reach for the Neo... Effective Top Tube 606 vs 610 which is negligible. Stack is practically identical. Still, 15mm in Reach is enough to feel. That's the difference between a 60mm stem and a 45mm. That's significant.

 

[Philpug]

2019 Habit

Geometry Geeks

The world's biggest open geometry database. Find bikes by name or numbers. Easily compare bike geometry side-by-side.

geometrygeeks.bike

2020 Habit Neo

Geometry Geeks

The world's biggest open geometry database. Find bikes by name or numbers. Easily compare bike geometry side-by-side.

geometrygeeks.bike

So you're looking at at least 15mm in the Reach for the Neo... Effective Top Tube 606 vs 610 which is negligible. Stack is practically identical. Still, 15mm in Reach is enough to feel. That's the difference between a 60mm stem and a 45mm. That's significant.

Actaully compare it against the Trigger and look at the wheelbase too. Significant.

Geometry Geeks

The world's biggest open geometry database. Find bikes by name or numbers. Easily compare bike geometry side-by-side.

geometrygeeks.bike

 

[cantunamunch]

Actaully compare it against the Trigger and look at the wheelbase too. Significant.

The front center is pretty impressive for descending - it should be more stable than @scott43s favourite BMC Al One - but the 455 chainstays are completely silly - ridiculous actually- for unpowered climbing.

Once the battery dies it's basically a decent sand/beach bike. I mean, I know why they did it - to avoid wheelies under power - but seeing that in a pedal bike, oof.

#2hourbikenotanalldaybike

 

[Philpug]

If we look at the Habit Neo and the Norco Sight, the numbers do not equate to @Tricia's experience.

Geometry Geeks

The world's biggest open geometry database. Find bikes by name or numbers. Easily compare bike geometry side-by-side.

geometrygeeks.bike

 

[Philpug]

Once the battery dies it's basically a decent sand/beach bike. I mean, I know why they did it - to avoid wheelies under power - but seeing that in a pedal bike, oof.

#2hourbikenotanalldaybike

The odds of that happening are nill and none. with a 750w battery, it is way more that 2 hours and way less than any ride she will be going out for.

 

[cantunamunch]

If we look at the Habit Neo and the Norco Sight, the numbers do not equate to @Tricia's experience.

Yeh, the formulae weren't mapped correctly. Some things are blatantly impossible like 769mm shorter front centre. Put another way, they got the calculation inputs wrong.

The odds of that happening are nill and none. with a 750w battery, it is way more that 2 hours and way less than any ride she will be going out for.

It won't be more than 2hours at her stated comfort levels

EDIT: I didn't see a 750Wh battery option on the Habit Neo - I saw a 500Wh battery and a 250W motor.

 

[cantunamunch]

So I went looking for non-electric non-powered HT versions of the Habit Neo - in medium of course - and the Sklar Sweet Spot looks pretty awesome on paper. @Tricia would be on the small, ofc.

 

[Slim]

I think stack and reach is pretty easy for anyone to understand, unlike say, effective toptube or some other ‘virtual’ number, it is both a physical measure that you can easily take yourself, and it’s easy to understand, since it is basically just an X,Y coordinate system.

The problem is with many media and users forgetting that they work together, and only focusing on reach. That’s where 90% of the confusion comes from.

 

[Slim]

@cantunamunch I think the long chainstays in e-bikes are simply because they have to fit the motor in around the bottombracket, and position the rear wheel behind that, not (primarily) to keep the front end down.

 

[Slim]

@Tricia, did you ever cut the bars shorter?

Good point @AmyPJ!

Enduro online magazine had a bike test, with a bunch of Pro’s race bikes, and one of the things they noticed was a bike they at first thought was much shorter than it actually was, due to the narrow bars.

I am a Bikefitter, and I love wide bars on mtb bikes, because I never have to tell people they need to buy a wider bar, BUT it does seem like many people stick with overly wide handlebars.

The fastest enduro race bike – 10 bikes go head-to-head on an EWS stage

Which is the fastest enduro bike of 2020? With most of the 2020 season cancelled, we decided to put on a race of our own to answer that very question.

enduro-mtb.com

 

[cantunamunch]

The problem is with many media and users forgetting that they work together, and only focusing on reach. That’s where 90% of the confusion comes from.

We agree here. They work together - yes. They are *not* linearly independent.

That's exactly why calling it an X/Y coordinate system fails. X/Y coordinate systems are axiomatically linearly independent.

IMO, your hypotenuse is much closer to getting the pedals to grip** idea right.

@cantunamunch I think the long chainstays in e-bikes are simply because they have to fit the motor in around the bottombracket, and position the rear wheel behind that, not (primarily) to keep the front end down.

I expect you're right about the compound design problem since the hub motor brands (Willier, Orbea, Basso) I know of don't do it. But it still doesn't improve the loss of climbing traction problem. Also known as the 'why you should stay seated while climbing' problem.

*compound since the yoke/BB area is a design problem for just about everyone with boost rears.
**grip includes handlebar width.

 

[Tricia]

@Tricia, did you ever cut the bars shorter? How long are the crank arms on the Habit? What drivetrain?

I never cut the bars down, mostly because it became abundantly clear that the bike overall is just too big and the amount of work to try and make it fit would be overwhelming, almost a complete rebuild.
Here are the specs on thebike I currently have. Size medium.

 

[AmyPJ]

Good point @AmyPJ!

Enduro online magazine had a bike test, with a bunch of Pro’s race bikes, and one of the things they noticed was a bike they at first thought was much shorter than it actually was, due to the narrow bars.

I am a Bikefitter, and I love wide bars on mtb bikes, because I never have to tell people they need to buy a wider bar, BUT it does seem like many people stick with overly wide handlebars.

The fastest enduro race bike – 10 bikes go head-to-head on an EWS stage

Which is the fastest enduro bike of 2020? With most of the 2020 season cancelled, we decided to put on a race of our own to answer that very question.

enduro-mtb.com

Putting the stem at its highest also makes the bike feel smaller. But I pretty much always cut my bars down from 780 to 750.