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Adjustable cuff alignment Lange RS 130 versus Head WCR 140

Zirbl

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Could anyone familiar with these two boots please clear this up for me? Talking consumer boots here, not plugs.

The Head WCR manual is clear as day - they consider a "neutral" cuff position to be plus 0.5 (i.e. out), and from there it can be tipped inwards a full degree to get minus 0.5 degrees and outwards a full degree to get plus 1.5 degrees. Head tell me that the WCR boot manual's info also applies to the 140.

The Lange website is less clear - they say that the RS cuff can be adjusted 1.5 degrees plus/minus. But it's not clear from where. It doesn't look like it's from zero.

I have the Lange cuff maxed out internally but it's still a tad too aggressive if I use the method of aligning the top of the cuff to keep equal space either side of the calf. Without knowing Lange's starting position, it's not clear to me whether the WCR would allow a better match or not.

Thanks.
 

otto

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The companies manual and the sole and cuff alignment numbers are not what determines your cuff alignment. Your lower leg centered in the boot cuff is the goal. The starting point of the adjustment is not relative to which is better for you. It simply allows the cuff of either brand or model boot to be adjusted to you and your lower leg. In a perfect world the adjustment would have your lower leg centered in the boot, or at least able to get the cuff moving in the direction that that helps to better center the cuff to the lower leg.

There is more to why one boot is more aggressive than another than just cuff adjustment. Like sole canting, and the internal dimensions of the medial wall shape and how it touches and controls your foot, ankle, and lower leg. It is a puzzle that has more than one method of creating change at the ski edge. Speaking of which, you could also experiment with the base bevels of your hard snow skis to reduce the aggressive feeling of a ski boot. There could also be an element of how your footbed or lack of one interacts with the bootboard and medial shell wall that may need to be adjusted to your boot choice and what your feet need.

You are splitting a hair that does not need to be split, IMHO :)
 

cem

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as @otto says so many variables and just to make it more fun, i could measure 3 pairs of the same boot out of the box and all three could be slightly different, remember these things are put together by hand, the holes for the pivot are drilled by a guy/girl offering the shell up to a pillar drill so even .2mm out of where the hole should be can cause a change in the finished boot.... add to that the fact that most of the shells need to be flattened before you start as there is a twist from where they are removed from the mould, which way to you flatten them inwards or outwards, knowing the neutrality of the lower shell is the starting point and how it reads on the laser then you decide which high spot is causing the problem
 
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Zirbl

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The companies manual and the sole and cuff alignment numbers are not what determines your cuff alignment. Your lower leg centered in the boot cuff is the goal. The starting point of the adjustment is not relative to which is better for you. It simply allows the cuff of either brand or model boot to be adjusted to you and your lower leg.
Thanks, that's what I'm aiming for. I should have provided more info. I also should have said "cuff strong" instead of aggressive. It has been established by two different boot fitters, one with World Cup experience, and two coaches that the Lange cannot be adjusted inward enough for my lower leg to be centred in the cuff. The observation took into consideration custom footbeds. (Neither of the bootfitters fitted the boot, they made the observation while addressing different issues when I was unable to return to the original fitter. I can't consult either of them to discuss a new boot right now, or I would. A replacement wasn't an option at the time, so we didn't discuss one.) I was using the manual as a reference point in trying to establish whether as a point of fact the WCR 140 cuff CAN be moved in further than the Lange's. The final choice of boots and cuff angle would be made in conjunction with a bootfitter, but there's considerable cost and logistics involved in just getting to one, and most fitters have to preorder the shell in my unusual size, so I'm just trying to establish WHETHER the WCR can be adjusted further than the Lange or not before pursuing it.
Or maybe the Lange cuff can be adjusted further by someone with the tools?

add to that the fact that most of the shells need to be flattened before you start as there is a twist from where they are removed from the mould, which way to you flatten them inwards or outwards, knowing the neutrality of the lower shell is the starting point and how it reads on the laser then you decide which high spot is causing the problem
Thanks, that makes perfect sense but I haven't come across anyone who does this with consumer boots. Is that something you routinely check for?
 
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cem

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@Zirbl any solid soled boot, first place it goes in my store is on the flat plate and then the sander as required
 
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Zirbl

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@Zirbl any solid soled boot, first place it goes in my store is on the flat plate and then the sander as required
Do the RS 130 and WCR 140 fit the description of solid-soled boot? Thought that was just the plugs, or is my understanding of solid soled wrong?
 

cem

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Do the RS 130 and WCR 140 fit the description of solid-soled boot? Thought that was just the plugs, or is my understanding of solid soled wrong?
anything that does not have a replaceable sole unit on it is solid soled as far as i am concerned
 

skipress

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anything that does not have a replaceable sole unit on it is solid soled as far as i am concerned
they re solid, think removeable screw on sole pads covering a hollow sole area as non solid, most but not all retail race are solid [so you can debate where the Salomon alpha for example fits]
 

GregK

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Here’s a pic from Lange’s website on adjusting the cuff(they call it canting).

Looks like the middle/factory position is indeed more outward at positive 1.5 degree and then you can move it outward 1 degree more for 2.5 degrees or 1 degree inward for positive 0.5 degree.

436C2B44-E5E2-400D-94C5-F0FFB3A71307.png
 

cem

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they re solid, think removeable screw on sole pads covering a hollow sole area as non solid, most but not all retail race are solid [so you can debate where the Salomon alpha for example fits]
not sure if that made it easier for people to understand or confused them further

@GregK that may be correct for some lange boots, but the race boots in question should all be Zero degrees out the box (if they arent warped or twisted or drilled off centre)
 

GregK

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Lange has this pic under all their race boots along with their standard high performance boots so it’s definitely not made clear by Lange if there’s any difference between their starting points. :huh:

73E7BD7C-5936-441D-8A96-C4340D031F2C.jpeg
 

cem

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having put the race boots on a laser alignment tool, out the box ALL the lower shells are 0 degrees, the plug shells are 0 degrees +/- on the cuff and the RS consumer boots are 1.5 degrees positive +/- .....the +/- can be .5 degrees or more hence why we are trying to make the point that until you see the actual boot on the actual foot with the actual footbed it is all speculation
 

otto

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Still missing the point... Numbers are just numbers. Just because you read something on a tag or quasi manual that does not make it factual. Getting the cuff perfect is not a "thing" Getting the cuff into the ballpark is all we are trying to do. Are there ways to adapt a boot to have more travel laterally at the cuff? Possibly. But not a critical factor in boot set-up.
 
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Zirbl

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not sure if that made it easier for people to understand or confused them further
Confused me further. I might be misunderstanding the terminology, since the toe and heel plates on consumer race boots are replaceable. Is that something different to a replaceable sole unit? Or if you could just make it as simple as possible for this noggin please, do you check and plane the soles of consumer RS 130 and consumer Raptor 140 boots?

Otto, you've confused me too with this:
Are there ways to adapt a boot to have more travel laterally at the cuff? Possibly. But not a critical factor in boot set-up.
Earlier you wrote
Your lower leg centered in the boot cuff is the goal. [...] In a perfect world the adjustment would have your lower leg centered in the boot, or at least able to get the cuff moving in the direction that that helps to better center the cuff to the lower leg.
It's a goal but not a critical one?
 
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cem

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Confused me further. The toe and heel plates on consumer race boots are replaceable. Is that something different to a sole unit. Or to spell it out for this noggin please, do you check and plane the soles of consumer RS 130 and consumer Raptor 140 boots?

Getting the cuff to match the lower leg is not a critical factor? Or you get it to match by other means than adjusting the cuff?

a boot like the rs 130 or the raptor 140 is a solid sole ( it has no replaceable part on the bottom of the boot) this doesn’t mean that the lugs are completely solid but for the purpose of adding a lifter they are solid, YES I check each and every one of those. As they are among the most common to be twisted

in response to the part about @otto’s post it is about getting you in the ball park, for 99% of skiers they are unlikely to notice, and for a % the cuff won’t move far enough

snow is going to start falling soon, how about we go skiing and stop over analysing this
 

James

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I had a Head B3 where I went to the max medial cuff cant. It still wasn’t enough. At some point I went to a fitter who made me a different foot bed. We ended up taking the cuff back to near neutral, and that issue went away. Don’t ask me the exact differences, my sense was it was the heel cup.
 
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Zirbl

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a boot like the rs 130 or the raptor 140 is a solid sole ( it has no replaceable part on the bottom of the boot) this doesn’t mean that the lugs are completely solid but for the purpose of adding a lifter they are solid, YES I check each and every one of those. As they are among the most common to be twisted

in response to the part about @otto’s post it is about getting you in the ball park, for 99% of skiers they are unlikely to notice, and for a % the cuff won’t move far enough
Thanks a bunch. Having seen six bootfitters to date, most of them with the reputations that come from having FIS or WC clientele, I have the impression this attention to detail with consumer boots is rare.

how about we go skiing and stop over analysing this
Yes, I've come at it in the most anal way because I was trying to understand the manuals and wanted to make the post more about the boots than my own set up, since that's boring for everyone, so I came at it via the published figures thinking that would let me apply it to my own needs. Clearly that was the wrong approach and thanks to you and @otto for taking the time to explain why. So to ask the question in the simplest possible terms: You have a Raptor and an RS. You've checked the soles and corrected them if needed. You've done all the other stuff you do re. footbeds and what have you. Which cuff can be moved to the inside further? The RS or the Raptor? Or both the same?
 
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onenerdykid

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Whenever there are geometry questions about ski boots, I like to remind people that ski boots are not bicycle frames with straight lines (or center-to-center measurements) that can be measured consistently and repeatedly. For example, there is no standard or agreed upon way to measure a boot's forward lean simply because there isn't a straight line on the back of the boot to measure, nor is the cuff a perfect cylinder. Atomic's forward lean is measured up the rear of the cuff, which is an approximation since there isn't a straight line that runs up the back of the cuff. The rear portion of the shell & cuff move inwards and outwards from top to bottom. So it's a "sort of" 15° in Hawx and "sort of" 16° in Redster.

Re: which cuff has more lateral travel? This is something that can be measured and you might find that one has more than the other or that both have the same amount. BUT the Head cuff and the Lange cuff do not have the same shape and this matters. They are not identical cylinders, where if by knowing that one had more movement vs. the other it would yield a meaningful comparison. But more so, they aren't even a cylinder. They are different shaped cones without straight lines- one will have a more tulip shape at its top and one will have less, one will be more voluminous than the other, and this matters. You might have one cuff with less lateral movement but since it has a shape that matches your leg it ends up working better for you. Or conversely, you might have one cuff with more lateral movement but since it is straighter at the top (i.e. less tulip shape) it feels more aggressive to you.

If the Lange boot is working for you in every other regard, a good boot fitter can create more tulip shaping on the side of the cuff that is giving you grief, thus making the cuff less aggressive. This is something that can work more effectively than wondering if one boot has more possible lateral movement than another.
 
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Zirbl

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Thanks @onenerdykid .

If the Lange boot is working for you in every other regard, a good boot fitter can create more tulip shaping on the side of the cuff that is giving you grief, thus making the cuff less aggressive. This is something that can work more effectively than wondering if one boot has more possible lateral movement than another.
Both fitters who identified the issue just said they couldn't move the cuff any further. Delighted to learn it's not the only solution.
 

Rod9301

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You can also heat up the liner up where it touches the side of the calf and compress it on the side where the shell is closer to your calf
 

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