Advanced on-piste carving: 10 key tips to help you achieve higher edge angles

[geepers]

You're stuck down under?

Ulnar

Nothing to do with snow or ice. Sydney summer. Tumbled down a steep embankment and collided with a park bench. Cast immobilizing wrist and elbow for at least 6 weeks. That's the trip to Canada and any skiing finished. :(:(

www.skitalk.com

Ok, it's spelt ulna...

 

[LiquidFeet]

Oh. Missed that. All I've got is a sprained wrist. Bummer.
So, lots of time on the internet finding excellent ski videos then.
Thanks for sharing your finds.

 

[JESinstr]

Hmmm... would suggest that skier who generates a goodly amount of centripetal force (as you appear to do in your posted vids ) has plenty of means of projecting their body down the hill. At the same time throwing does seem a bit extreme.

It's interesting the different takes instructors have on this.

Tom Gellie is very much an advocate for toppling form one turn to the next and it's a concept discussed in the CSIA manuals and vids.

Richie Berger doesn't seem to be a fan of "falling" into the new turn.

Paul Lorenz uses the concept of centripetal vs centrifugal forces and unbalancing in favor of centrifugal to pull the skier across the skis and into the new turn.

Reilly McGlashan has posted that he doesn't think or use the concept of toppling at all.

The skis may not actually go up the hill but they are on a different trajectory than the body, they are uphill of the body, and it sure feels like they are going uphill.

Good observations. My only "2 cents" is that, unlike the constant force of Gravity, the creation of Centripetal force (conversion of straight line travel to circular travel aka Carving) starts at 0 and has to be built. So at transition, depending on the skier's velocity and their mastery of the carving process there may be little or dependable centripetal force to be had. I have a problem with technique (throwing the body) that potentially has no reliable base to execute from. Just my way at looking at things.

BTW, you posted a Paul Lorenz Vid called Carving Transition in another thread.
At 15 seconds in he talks about carving and those who execute the process well are "sensitive to and understand the incredible forces that PUSH ON YOU to change direction". To me that is the essence of the carving process. And to beat a dead horse, the fundamentals of this process (centered balance, edge building and pressure management) can and should be taught from the get go.
Thanks for posting that... it's a keeper

 

[François Pugh]

You can ski with a broken arm; just don't fall on it; that would hurt (even more).

 

[BTWilliams]

Wow...GREAT post. Cut, paste and save worthy.

Personally, I would conceptualize #3 a little bit differently, or at least focus on explaining it exclusively like you do later in the paragraph. Avoid the talk of "falling to the inside". That way of thinking never resulted in anything good, at least for me.

The transition is the payoff for all the work (radial acceleration) done earlier in the turn. That is where you are going ACROSS the hill. So, you do not want to think of "throwing your body to the inside". In a relative sense it may feel that way, but think about the direction your center of mass is traveling. At that point, your are travelling as far across and above the fall line as you ever will be. Your CoM is moving outside, not inside. The more accurate way, and more effective way, is to think of "REACHING". "Reach OUT" farther and farther and farther WITH YOUR FEET/SKIS. That is what "toppling" really is. It is REACHING out with your skis at the end of your transition to increase your edge angles. For racers, the more you can reach, the less you have to move your CoM to get around the gates. This means you can go faster without becoming hopelessly unstuck.

What really makes this work for me is performing the "REACH" as early as possible relative TO THE FALL LINE. So you are effectively reaching UP THE HILL. That is what creates the feeling of "falling to the inside". When you ski aggressively, you are starting a new turn well before the fall line, and your new outside ski is still your UPHILL ski. This puts gravity on your side, and you feel like you are falling down the hill. But in reality, you reached up the hill and put gravity on your side. This is what I see in Ted Ligety's skiing. Early turn initiation relative to the fall line so gravity is on his side.

When I have had the luxury of skiing really good groomed corduroy with no other tracks, one of the best ways I found to diagnose my own skiing is looking at my tracks. You can see where the load on the outside ski is greatest. If you are skiing well, the max load (deepest edge depression) will be right at the fall line, or even a bit before. If your peak load is after the fall line, you are not starting the turn early enough relative to the fall line. Where you start the turn relative to the fall line has a lot to do with how your body positions (technique) progress through the turn. One of the surest ways to get back, and even completely lose it, is to start the turn too late relative to the fall line. Now you have radial acceleration and gravity ganging up on you, and you will lose that battle most of the time.

 

[François Pugh]

Well, you're moving outside until you cross the skis, then your moving inside. This is where it gets dicey. How fast can you dive inside without getting too far ahead of (yourself) your skis tightening the turn, and going splat?

 

[JESinstr]

Well, you're moving outside until you cross the skis, then your moving inside. This is where it gets dicey. How fast can you dive inside without getting too far ahead of (yourself) your skis tightening the turn, and going splat?

When you think of skiing from the top down, things will always become dicey.

 

[geepers]

sprained wrist.

Hope that's healed/healing!

 

[esteban525]

First, you send a little bit of a mixed message on the inside ski. You say, "The inside leg is relaxed and just comes along for the ride." but then a little later you say, "While skiing, the inside leg is much more active than the outside."

Thank you for your observation. I was speaking in terms of balance/pressure, in that sentence. But definitely is ambiguous. I will re-write that part.

 

[James]

I am in no way (nor do I have the means) of throwing my body down the hill.

If your feet are on the ground you do. Otherwise no one would be able to spin, cork, or front flip.

Hmmm... would suggest that skier who generates a goodly amount of centripetal force (as you appear to do in your posted vids ) has plenty of means of projecting their body down the hill. At the same time throwing does seem a bit extreme.

It's interesting the different takes instructors have on this.

Tom Gellie is very much an advocate for toppling form one turn to the next and it's a concept discussed in the CSIA manuals and vids.


Richie Berger doesn't seem to be a fan of "falling" into the new turn.


Paul Lorenz uses the concept of centripetal vs centrifugal forces and unbalancing in favor of centrifugal to pull the skier across the skis and into the new turn.


Reilly McGlashan has posted that he doesn't think or use the concept of toppling at all.




The skis may not actually go up the hill but they are on a different trajectory than the body, they are uphill of the body, and it sure feels like they are going uphill.

Here’s HK doing forceful anti-toppling. I.e., he’s throwing himself into the new turn as the forces in the old one won’t do it.

At 1:33. [and on] Can’t get it to cue on a phone.

 

[LiquidFeet]

At 1:33. Can’t get it to cue on a phone.

What a curious choice of music. I turned it off at first, then back on. Compelling the second time and I definitely let it run.

 

[tomahawkins]

Hi @esteban525, great write-up! In figure 1 -- as with all force body diagrams of a skier in a turn -- the center of mass (CM) is drawn on the skier's belly button. But this isn't strictly true because upper body angulation will shift the CM a little to the side you are leaning; in the case of figure 1 it maybe somewhere closer to the skier's left hip joint. (Is this you? Nice turn!)

So here's a hypothesis I haven't heard mentioned before: Upper body angulation causes the CM to shift higher off the snow, which must be countered by a greater lean and thus, more edge angle. The greater the upper body angulation, the greater the edge angle. Thoughts?

A fun experiment would be to get a fanny pack, load it with weight, wear it on one hip to screw up your CM, then see how your left and right turns compare.

 

[geepers]

Here’s HK doing forceful anti-toppling. I.e., he’s throwing himself into the new turn as the forces in the old one won’t do it.

Anti-toppling?

So here's a hypothesis I haven't heard mentioned before: Upper body angulation causes the CM to shift higher off the snow, which must be countered by a greater lean and thus, more edge angle. The greater the upper body angulation, the greater the edge angle. Thoughts?

Maybe watch some Big Picture Skiing vids.

 

[JESinstr]

Here’s HK doing forceful anti-toppling. I.e., he’s throwing himself into the new turn as the forces in the old one won’t do it.

At 1:33. Can’t get it to cue on a phone.

HK is doing low velocity extend to release turns not flex to release. There is no throwing going on. It is a slo mo version of Burke Mt./Shiffrin get over it drill. It appears to be an edit at 1:33 so it is irrelevant to your post.

 

[geepers]

HK is doing low velocity extend to release turns not flex to release. There is no throwing going on. It is a slo mo version of Burke Mt./Shiffrin get over it drill. It appears to be an edit at 1:33 so it is irrelevant to your post.

Think James means the turns from 1:33 - sure don't look like extension turns.

 

[JESinstr]

Think James means the turns from 1:33 - sure don't look like extension turns.

Oh OK, I find those who use phones are often cryptic in their communications.
Anyway you are right. Those are flex to release transitions and a totally different release methodology from the previous drill. But I think you and I agree that edge building using the flex to release transition comes from an effort to get the skis out and away vs throwing the upper mass down the hill.

 

[pchewn]

Interesting: It appears that achieving high edge angles is a goal unto itself, rather than a component to achieve a short-radius turn. (Short relative to the speed).

Achieving the edge angle seems to be a fashion statement (it looks cool), instead of a necessary element of a high-G turn.

 

[JESinstr]

Interesting: It appears that achieving high edge angles is a goal unto itself, rather than a component to achieve a short-radius turn. (Short relative to the speed).

Achieving the edge angle seems to be a fashion statement (it looks cool), instead of a necessary element of a high-G turn.

Don't think it is a fasion statement I think it is just that skiers think they are on a higher edge than they actually are. Learning to actively shorten the inside leg taught me that.

 

[slowrider]

Yeah trying to hard. You can use the movements to achieve a goal. But it's suppose to be fun so stay loose. I like to ski the conditions. Sometimes slow smear turns other times go for the big angles. Its a great sport. Time to boot up. Best PNW April ever.

 

[tomahawkins]

Interesting: It appears that achieving high edge angles is a goal unto itself, rather than a component to achieve a short-radius turn. (Short relative to the speed).

I think, more than just a component, edge angle mostly determines turning radius. Which is good because you can focus on this one metric to improve your turns and less so on angulation, separation, toppling, pressuring, spacing, and all the other coaching/instructor terms thrown at this problem. In this regard, CARV is probably a useful learning tool for providing continuous edge angle feedback.

Achieving the edge angle seems to be a fashion statement (it looks cool), instead of a necessary element of a high-G turn.

Yes. The unstated goal is a fist and your ass on the snow. Let's be honest with ourselves; in these positions, it's not the hip that's dragging.