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Alpine-Touring hybrid setup

James

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You mean people take the tongues out for the climb?
@Noodler , were you talking about using zipfits on the way up and down or actually switching at the top?
 

Slim

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@James, yes, remove tongue for the climb. This was common with older Dynafit and Atomic touring boots. Maybe others as well.
 

Noodler

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You mean people take the tongues out for the climb?
@Noodler , were you talking about using zipfits on the way up and down or actually switching at the top?

No, I was questioning the sanity in doing a liner swap in the middle of a tour. I do have 2 different liners for my Fischer boots. I use the ZipFit WC liner when I used them purely for alpine lift-served skiing. They're 608g per liner. I use the Palau liners for up and down when touring. They're 190g per liner. Big, big difference.
 

Rod9301

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Someone was advocating not using the high lifters, because it was hard on hip flexors.

I think the idea of not using the highest lifters comes from european ski guides who generally have clients that are not very fit. So they would set pretty low angle skin tracks, saying you should nugget use high lifters.

I'm not advocating setting steep skin tracks. But by all means use the high lifters, it's a lot easier on your legs.

Skinning is not a competition of who can go up without using high lifters.
 

Noodler

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Someone was advocating not using the high lifters, because it was hard on hip flexors.

I think the idea of not using the highest lifters comes from european ski guides who generally have clients that are not very fit. So they would set pretty low angle skin tracks, saying you should nugget use high lifters.

I'm not advocating setting steep skin tracks. But by all means use the high lifters, it's a lot easier on your legs.

Skinning is not a competition of who can go up without using high lifters.

I see your point. What I've been doing so far is just gauging the amount of strain on stretching my calves/achilles too far and then kicking in the heel risers. I definitely notice the reduced stride length when using the lifters, so it's important to knock them back down on the flatter sections. It will be interesting to see how boots with walk-mode play with the Daymakers. I just picked up a pair of Fischer Ranger Free 130 boots to get a bit more weight savings until I go for the full-on dedicated touring setup next season.
 

Slim

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It will be interesting to see how boots with walk-mode play with the Daymakers. I just picked up a pair of Fischer Ranger Free 130 boots to get a bit more weight savings until I go for the full-on dedicated touring setup next season.
@Noodler , my oldest daughter has those Ranger free boots (well, the women’s 110).
They are really good 50/50 boots. They’re quite light and even more importantly, walk very well.
Shell weight is very low too (full Grillamid), so if you put in a Intuition or Palau liner (check Sierra for closeout Scarpa branded Intuition liners), you will be extremely close to boots like an Atomic XTD 130.
 

Slim

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@Noodler , I just looked at Blister, and in 26.5 shell weights were:
Zero G TP: 1100g
Hawx XTD: 1130g
Ranger Free: 1205g

So only 65-105g more than than the lightest options in that class.
 

Noodler

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@Noodler , I just looked at Blister, and in 26.5 shell weights were:
Zero G TP: 1100g
Hawx XTD: 1130g
Ranger Free: 1205g

So only 65-105g more than than the lightest options in that class.

So these were the bare shell weights? If so, that gives me hope of making the Ranger Free a solid option longer term than I was originally thinking. I will probably remold my Palau liner for this boot and pass along my Fischer The Curv 130 to one of my sons, but I'll be doing some downhill performance testing between the two boots first before deciding. Thanks for the info.
 

Noodler

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Received the new Fischer Ranger Free 130 boots today. In size 25.5, I measured the following:

Shell (no bootboard) = 1181g
Bootboard = 42g
Liner = 355g
Total weight (stock) = 1578g

My Palau Power LT liner w/ firm foam tongue mod = 190g
Downunders footbed = 40g
Fischer Ranger Free 130 (25.5) w/ Palau liner = 1453g

So the Ranger Free 130 at 1453g is a 320g savings over my Fischer Curv 130 that I had been using. The difference of 320g is really noticeable just walking around my house. I'll take them out for lap on Friday morning to see how the weight savings impacts my LL lap.

What's more impressive is the fit and function of this boot. It actually feels a bit narrower than my other Fischer and what really surprised me is that the Palau liner dropped right in to the new the boot. Because they're both Fischer boots and use the same construction design, the current Palau liner molding is matching up well enough that I won't need to re-mold and lose volume and warmth in the liner (which is what happens when you heat a thermoflex liner again).

The boot feels plenty burly flex-wise and all the pieces and parts have some nice thought put into how they operate (the buckles, the walk mechanism level, the power strap). I did find that all the screws on the boots were a bit loose, so I tightened them all up.

So with this boot sitting at 1453g, for me to even consider going to a different boot for touring would mean venturing into the sub-1200g weight class to make it worthwhile. Maybe the new Fischer Transalp Pro (published as 1280g for the 26.5) would still make the cut, but I'm certainly suspicious of how well they'll ski compared to the Ranger Free 130. This Ranger Free feels like a real alpine boot just flexing it in my house. I'm really hoping it skis well... :)
 

ScottB

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I think you are smack in the middle of the sweet spot for touring boots that still ski downhill well. You have a lightweight liner that will tour well to boot.

I found the lightweight liner that came with my boots toured great, but for a full day of resort skiing it was too thin. I upgraded to the new Atomic Mimic liner which weights 150 grams more. Its a night and day improvement for resort skiing and I really haven't noticed any downside for touring. I have not tried a different liner in each boot for touring, but the extra weight was not "slap you in the face" noticeable. The extra comfort sure was.
 

James

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Isn’t the Ranger one of the vacuum molded boots? Aka pressure forming? Will you do that if so?
I’ve seen it, it’s a solid boot. What’s the forward lean like?
 

Noodler

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I think you are smack in the middle of the sweet spot for touring boots that still ski downhill well. You have a lightweight liner that will tour well to boot.

I found the lightweight liner that came with my boots toured great, but for a full day of resort skiing it was too thin. I upgraded to the new Atomic Mimic liner which weights 150 grams more. Its a night and day improvement for resort skiing and I really haven't noticed any downside for touring. I have not tried a different liner in each boot for touring, but the extra weight was not "slap you in the face" noticeable. The extra comfort sure was.

If I didn't have a quiver of boots, I would be all over the idea of swapping in a beefy ZipFit liner and using the Ranger Free 130 as an inbounds daily driver. Of course, that's assuming that it skis well on Friday using the Palau liner.
 

Noodler

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Isn’t the Ranger one of the vacuum molded boots? Aka pressure forming? Will you do that if so?
I’ve seen it, it’s a solid boot. What’s the forward lean like?

I haven't seen any indication that the Fischer touring boots are vacuum formable. They are 100% Grilamid.

Forward lean without the cuff spoiler "feels" typical, but unfortunately I cannot measure it the way I normally would due to the walk mechanism. I need to come up with a reliable measurement method for this type of boot. In progress...
 

ScottB

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I don't use my Hawx XTD 130 as my inbounds daily driver. I use my new Atomic Redster Club Sport 130 for that. I have two boots, and that's enough for me. The Redster is quite a bit more boot than the XTD even with the upgraded mimic liner. What I do use the XTD for inbounds is when I plan to do some sidecountry, or just skin up the resort trails. I also use it for race coaching. Why I like the new liner so much is I can wear the boot all day in the resort, and if I only do 1 sidecountry run, its still good and comfortable for the rest of the inbounds runs. The precision is a notch down from the Redster, but still very good and totally acceptable. If your someone who doesn't like race boots, then the XTD could work well as your daily driver and touring boot. I know people who use it that way and are very happy.
 

Noodler

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I haven't seen any indication that the Fischer touring boots are vacuum formable. They are 100% Grilamid.

Forward lean without the cuff spoiler "feels" typical, but unfortunately I cannot measure it the way I normally would due to the walk mechanism. I need to come up with a reliable measurement method for this type of boot. In progress...

I found a couple sources that state 12* as the forward lean, but this is clearly a measurement at the front of the cuff rather than the rear. It would be nice if manufacturers would state where they're measuring the forward lean. My Nordicas (GP 140 and GPX 130) are 12.5* forward lean measured at the front of the cuff. So as I noted in my previous response, the Ranger 130 feels similar standing around the house.

Also, I didn't realize how much Fischer changed this AT hybrid boot between the original iteration, the Ranger Free 130, and the new version the Ranger 130 Walk. I have the newer 2021 version. It is about 50g heavier than the original version, with this weight being accounted for in a more "supportive" lower clog. There are also other tweaks they made to improve the design and function (power strap, walk mechanism, cuff pivots, etc.). All-in-all, this new version of the boot is much better than the original version that I was fitted for in a shop a couple seasons ago. That version had this weird "gap" in its rear support when the cuff was locked. The cuff would effectively "float" without any stiffness/support for about 5mm when you flexed the cuff backwards. I found that missing support kind of disconcerting and that's why I didn't pull the trigger on a purchase on that version of the boot. This newer version has eliminated that problem. It absolutely feels like an alpine boot when the cuff is locked; there is no gap in the support when moving between flexed forward and leaning back.
 

Noodler

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So I ran into a major problem with the Ranger 130 boot on the downhill portion of my lap Friday morning. It has insufficient forward lean for my ideal setup. I felt like I was standing straight up and found it quite difficult to ski that way. I came up with a way to measure the forward lean on the boots that seems to be reliable. These boots measure at 13.5* while all my others are at 16*. So for the first time I'm going to have to shim the heel of the boot instead of my usual need for toe shims. I have tested a 3mm shim and it gets the forward lean to 15*. I'm building those shims and will test that setup before I go any thicker. I'm assuming that shimming an AT boot at the heel has no consequences for a tech binding (note that I'm going with the Fritschi Tecton, so I won't be using a pin heel).

Getting AT hybrid equipment setup correctly for your alignment needs is proving to be significantly more challenging than alpine.
 

ScottB

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I'm assuming that shimming an AT boot at the heel has no consequences for a tech binding (note that I'm going with the Fritschi Tecton, so I won't be using a pin heel).

I would think changing the height of the rear binding contact surface will be the same alpine or tech w/alpine heel. You probably can get away with 3mm, but you should router the boot to compensate strictly speaking. I assume the heel has an over center spring, so as long as it gets over center it will hold you down. Probably loose some elasticity though.
 

Noodler

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I would think changing the height of the rear binding contact surface will be the same alpine or tech w/alpine heel. You probably can get away with 3mm, but you should router the boot to compensate strictly speaking. I assume the heel has an over center spring, so as long as it gets over center it will hold you down. Probably loose some elasticity though.

Yes, any shimming of a boot sole really should have the lugs routered back to spec.

I built the 3mm shims yesterday and installed them. I don't know what I'd do without a Dremel tool. It certainly makes projects like this much faster to complete and with better results.

Shims with one of the GripWalk heel pieces:
20210328_041556389_iOS (2).jpg


Installed shim:
20210328_042710425_iOS (2).jpg


I don't love how the very end of the heel is interfacing to the shell, but I can probably fix that with my heat gun. Haven't routered the heel lug yet, but need to know if this fix will be staying put. The shim height isn't having too much impact on the binding heel piece, but I will router once testing is complete. Will be taking them out for a test run this morning...
 

Noodler

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Test lap completed and the experiment definitely took the boots in the right direction. It was way better with the 3mm heel shim, but it's not quite all the way where I need them. I was at least able to really ski down the mountain instead of just survive, but my brain really wants that 16* of forward lean. So I'm going to build another set of shims with some other material sheet I have available that's about 5mm thick. I just love fabricating shims... not!
 

Tony Storaro

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OK, my Backlands 95 just arrived and it seems to me another period of agony is about to begin as if choosing them in the first place was not enough.
The burning question is: Where to mount the bindings. They have Factory line then +1,+2/-1, -2. So what do I do? Just stand on them and slap the bindings wherever it feels right?

P.S. Lol, these skis are like toys man, weightless, this just cant be serious... :ogbiggrin:
 

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