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Alpine-Touring hybrid setup

Noodler

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OK, my Backlands 95 just arrived and it seems to me another period of agony is about to begin as if choosing them in the first place was not enough.
The burning question is: Where to mount the bindings. They have Factory line then +1,+2/-1, -2. So what do I do? Just stand on them and slap the bindings wherever it feels right?

P.S. Lol, these skis are like toys man, weightless, this just cant be serious... :ogbiggrin:

If you plan on bending them into an arc in higher edge angle turns, then my posts regarding aligning the boot midsole over the narrowest point of the sidecut may hold some water with you... ;)
 

Tony Storaro

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If you plan on bending them into an arc in higher edge angle turns, then my posts regarding aligning the boot midsole over the narrowest point of the sidecut may hold some water with you... ;)

Bending THESE at high edge angles? Man, these do not feel like piste skis AT ALL :roflmao: They feel like some featherweight thingies that would probably fly uphill but I dread the moment I will point them down.:ogbiggrin:
I cant wait to be proven wrong of course but at this moment I cannot imagine skiing them nearly half as hard as I do with my proper groomer skis. I imagine the descends will be a careful, delicate affair.
 

Noodler

Sir Turn-a-lot
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Bending THESE at high edge angles? Man, these do not feel like piste skis AT ALL :roflmao: They feel like some featherweight thingies that would probably fly uphill but I dread the moment I will point them down.:ogbiggrin:
I cant wait to be proven wrong of course but at this moment I cannot imagine skiing them nearly half as hard as I do with my proper groomer skis. I imagine the descends will be a careful, delicate affair.

Ahhh, I see your point. However, I think midsole over narrowest point is still a good starting place.
 

Noodler

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Test lap completed and the experiment definitely took the boots in the right direction. It was way better with the 3mm heel shim, but it's not quite all the way where I need them. I was at least able to really ski down the mountain instead of just survive, but my brain really wants that 16* of forward lean. So I'm going to build another set of shims with some other material sheet I have available that's about 5mm thick. I just love fabricating shims... not!


Major update...

So I did some research on Grilamid plastic and how easily it can be formed and if it will actually retain the changes. Turns out that you need to be careful, but it's not too terribly hard to work with Grilamid. After realizing that I needed more forward lean on the Fischer Ranger 130 shells, but not via just tipping the whole boot forward more (via a thicker heel shim), I decided to give heating the shells a shot to add more forward lean to the shells.

I heated the shells at 175* F for ten minutes. This is well below the recommended temps I found, but I wanted to start out more conservatively and I didn't want the heat from the shell to modify the thermoflex liner. After heating, the shell was super pliable. I had previously checked my fore/aft stance position in another pair of my good boots to get some reference points on how to stand. I used a piece of furniture to press my knees against in order to reliably reproduce the correct position. With the heated Fischer boots on, I re-assumed that position and allowed the shells to cool for 20 minutes (until they were cool to the touch). The position is also holding the correct stance width and I placed a 3mm shim below the heels to negate the GripWalk "hump" (as @pliny the elder advised).

Once the shells cooled I removed them and let them "settle". To my surprise, I actually nailed the changes I needed on the first try and the shells are retaining the increased forward lean. The forward lean is now at 16*. Some additional benefits of the heating are that the instep height has been lowered and the lateral cuff alignment improved. I needed both of these things, but these are "side effects" that you should be aware of when a boot is heated, flexed forward and allowed to cool in that position. Had I known it was going to be this easy, I wouldn't have even built the heel shims. I've never had luck with PU plastic boots when trying to increase forward lean by heating the shell, so I'm glad that Grilamid is easier for re-forming.

I'm really looking forward to skiing these boots again, now that I think I have the alignment issues resolved.
 

ScottB

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Good for you @Noodler on finding a "easy" solution. I am not surprised you had a good experience heat molding your grilamid boots. I used the Atomic memory fit process on my grilamid boots (hawx XTD) and it worked really well. Cuff's aligned side to side well, using top caps increased toe room, and overall the boot feels great on my feet, especially with my new mimic liners in them. It was worrisome to see the boot so pliable when it comes out of the oven, but it firmed right back up as it cooled and has worked well all season.
 

Tony Storaro

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Good for you @Noodler on finding a "easy" solution. I am not surprised you had a good experience heat molding your grilamid boots. I used the Atomic memory fit process on my grilamid boots (hawx XTD) and it worked really well. Cuff's aligned side to side well, using top caps increased toe room, and overall the boot feels great on my feet, especially with my new mimic liners in them. It was worrisome to see the boot so pliable when it comes out of the oven, but it firmed right back up as it cooled and has worked well all season.


So, just to clarify this further as I am about to start modifying my XTD Ultras:

1. First I heat mold the Mimic liners
2. If I am not happy with the space at the toes or something else I heat mold the shells. Right?

Did you do the shell molding yourself? Can you describe the procedure in details? Temperatures, times etc..

Thanks!
 

ScottB

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@Tony,

Yes to both 1 and 2. You can also heat mold the shells and liner at the same time. That is the Atomic memory fit process. It requires two ovens or heat sources. I had mine done at the store where I bought the boots. The mimic liner is made to be heat molded. I think that should be done not matter what. IF the shell feels great out of the box, then its optional to heat mold it. There is thread ( I think the ATomic ski boot thread, where Matt Manzer from atomic goes over the details). IF you can get to a shop, that is the best place to have the heat molding done. My shop did the boots for free with the sale, and the second liner (mimic) / shell mold they charged me $25 for. I thought that was a fair price.

Find the Atomic thread as it covers all the details. Since I didn't do it myself, that is the best source.
 

ScottB

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@Tony,

Here is the thread you want to read.

 

ScottB

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Apologies, I just shortened his handle. Does tagging actually do something on this forum? I am not aware, just thought the protocol was to use the @ sign.
 

Slim

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Apologies, I just shortened his handle. Does tagging actually do something on this forum? I am not aware, just thought the protocol was to use the @ sign.
Yep, you get an alert, same as when someone quotes you, or replies to a watched thread.

One of the coolest features on this forum is that once you type @—— you start getting a list of possible users, whose name starts with those characters. Since it includes their headshot, I find it really helps get the right Tony, or Eric or Scott ;-)
 

Tony Storaro

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Apologies, I just shortened his handle. Does tagging actually do something on this forum? I am not aware, just thought the protocol was to use the @ sign.

:ogbiggrin: Yeah, there are quite a lot of us Tonys in these forums. Thanks man!
 

Noodler

Sir Turn-a-lot
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Major update...

So I did some research on Grilamid plastic and how easily it can be formed and if it will actually retain the changes. Turns out that you need to be careful, but it's not too terribly hard to work with Grilamid. After realizing that I needed more forward lean on the Fischer Ranger 130 shells, but not via just tipping the whole boot forward more (via a thicker heel shim), I decided to give heating the shells a shot to add more forward lean to the shells.

I heated the shells at 175* F for ten minutes. This is well below the recommended temps I found, but I wanted to start out more conservatively and I didn't want the heat from the shell to modify the thermoflex liner. After heating, the shell was super pliable. I had previously checked my fore/aft stance position in another pair of my good boots to get some reference points on how to stand. I used a piece of furniture to press my knees against in order to reliably reproduce the correct position. With the heated Fischer boots on, I re-assumed that position and allowed the shells to cool for 20 minutes (until they were cool to the touch). The position is also holding the correct stance width and I placed a 3mm shim below the heels to negate the GripWalk "hump" (as @pliny the elder advised).

Once the shells cooled I removed them and let them "settle". To my surprise, I actually nailed the changes I needed on the first try and the shells are retaining the increased forward lean. The forward lean is now at 16*. Some additional benefits of the heating are that the instep height has been lowered and the lateral cuff alignment improved. I needed both of these things, but these are "side effects" that you should be aware of when a boot is heated, flexed forward and allowed to cool in that position. Had I known it was going to be this easy, I wouldn't have even built the heel shims. I've never had luck with PU plastic boots when trying to increase forward lean by heating the shell, so I'm glad that Grilamid is easier for re-forming.

I'm really looking forward to skiing these boots again, now that I think I have the alignment issues resolved.

Another update for those using hybrid boots...

I realized that I had to remove the 3mm heel shim I had built and installed because there was no way to router the heel lug height back into ISO compliance due to the metal plate and slots that are present on the heels of touring boots. Removing the 3mm shim meant that I had to reheat the shells again to add more forward lean. This time around I noticed that I was really "pushing" the shell to get this much forward lean with the mod and make it stick, but I was ultimately successful.

I skied the boots for another touring lap yesterday and then for some free-skiing and they are now totally dialed for the fore/aft alignment. I have to say that I'm really impressed with the way the Ranger 130 skis. This is a serious/substantial boot for the downhill. I could potentially see myself skiing this boot full-time if I were to swap liners between touring and downhill use (Palau for touring and ZipFit for alpine downhill days). There is absolutely no problem with this boot powering any ski I would potentially use. What's most surprising is that the Ranger 130 is definitely stiffer and more responsive than my RC4 The Curv 130. The Curv 130 feels downright soft in comparison.

So the moral of the story is that the traditional ways of addressing alignment for the fore/aft and lateral are just plain incompatible for boots with tech fittings. So you either have to go under binding or by heating the shell to re-establish better alignment geometry directly in the shell.
 

Cheizz

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There is absolutely no problem with this boot powering any ski I would potentially use. What's most surprising is that the Ranger 130 is definitely stiffer and more responsive than my RC4 The Curv 130. The Curv 130 feels downright soft in comparison.

This has been my experience as well. Especially after the Curv 130 went soft on me during season 3. I blame the Vacuum Fit type plastic that is used. The Grilamid transfers the power so much more.
 

Noodler

Sir Turn-a-lot
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This has been my experience as well. Especially after the Curv 130 went soft on me during season 3. I blame the Vacuum Fit type plastic that is used. The Grilamid transfers the power so much more.

I bet that's it. It's about the Vacuum-ready plastic they use on The Curv 130 vs. the Ranger 130 Grilamid. It's a very obvious difference in the flex and performance.
 

tomahawkins

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My new spring/summer touring setup:

Up: Fischer RCS Sprint Crown Jr 90cm w/ G3 Alpinist+ Grip skins, Madshus boots, Rossignol race bindings. Approx weight ~ 4 lbs.

Down: Head Monster 108 177cm, Look Pivot 15 bindings, K2 Recon 130 boots. Approx weight ~ 25 lbs.

(I chose the 177 to shave a few grams.)

If 5:1 is true, then the adjusted weight comes in at 25 + 4 * 5 == 45 lbs. If instead I were to have a single ski for the up and down, I'd need a 9 lbs setup to meet the same adjust weight (i.e. 45 / 5 = 9). And there's no way 9 pounds would compare to a Monster on the down. I may have a chance to test it out this week.

spring_tour.jpg
 
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tomahawkins

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It worked out really well! Those little skis are definitely light on the feet. I don't have much touring experience to compare to, but I felt less tired when reaching the top, legs felt great, and traction seemed better than I remember; no back slippage going up Blueberry Catrack (Mt. Baker). I do need to find a better glue; I lost on skin, but fortunately near the top. Also, those shorts skis are scary on the downhill. This shot is up above Artists' Point. Note the Baker volcano in the background.

IMG_4935.jpeg


These Monster 108s were fun; wish I had more time with them. It was a little unnerving: first run ever on M108s, dropping into a line I've never ridden before, alone in the backcountry. Fortunately my mother in law was watching from the parking lot. My tracks are left of center.

IMG_4940.jpeg
 

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