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Alpine-Touring hybrid setup

markojp

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Very interesting conversation. Once you start trying to retrofit and convert existing gear to do BC it starts getting complicated fast as you mull over the permutations and combinations. Do you have one or two pair of boots? Fully dedicated BC setup or not? Which bindings? Gripwalk, WTR considerations. I began my education and coursework 3 years ago and have been on out in the BC in the last few years. Very mellow...low angle stuff and just enjoy the leisurely pace and solitude of the experience. Not out to shred any gnarly lines...I'll leave that to some of you guys. I still ski resort 80% of the time because I don't get as many days as I'd prefer in the mountains anyway...so if lift-served is good I'll opt to get more turns in. When the snow is skied off or its been awhile, I'll opt to head out to find softer snow and less people.

I ended up with a pair of Lange XT Frees...which are heavily biased toward downhill but are fine on the way up and don't have the largest ROM in the world. I have two hybrid setups with the Shift and Kingpin....I far prefer the Shift and am even thinking of ditching the Kingpins. The Shift feels like it skis like an alpine binding to me...much more than the Kingpin. I have never skied a tech binding that does NOT have an alpine heel. If I were to do it all over, I probably would've just bought a dedicated setup BUT you do have to haul it places if you don't live near the mountains you plan to ski. Its very hard in the beginning if you don't know whether you plan to spend a ton of time in the BC or just dabble when you get bored in the resort or are looking for a completely new ski experience. I'm still stuck somewhere in between, but I'm glad I do have the ability to throw my skins on and change it up if I want.

Wait till you try on the new XT3 series boots! They're a game changer in Lange world! Stiffer, more range of motion, better upper and lower boot connection.
 

locknload

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Wait till you try on the new XT3 series boots! They're a game changer in Lange world! Stiffer, more range of motion, better upper and lower boot connection.
Dang it Markojp...I was worried you might say that. I was wondering how significant this upgrade was between the XTfree and the new XT3 series! I was hoping you'd say it as a run on of the mill upgrade that was mostly cosmetic and not significant in terms the stiffness, skiability and ROM of the boot!!! You are now making it something I really want to try and potentially buy. You were that impressed with it as compared to the XT Frees?
 

ScottB

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I went with a setup that is dedicated touring, but can be skied in the resort. I spent a fair amount of $ but what I got covers my bases well. I got shifts, blizzard zero G skis, 108 mm wide and weigh 1700 grams. They are a lighter version of the cohise ski. I bought atomic hawx ultra xtd 130 boots which tour really well and weigh 1400 grams. I can use them in the resort or skinning. I have dedicated alpine gear, but my new grear works on days I might do both and for bc days. I am more resort oriented, like you and I am very happy with the set up.
 

neonorchid

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Probably very premature to ask but does anyone know if a Duke PT 12/16 V-Werks version will be coming for the 21/22 line-up?
 

markojp

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Dang it Markojp...I was worried you might say that. I was wondering how significant this upgrade was between the XTfree and the new XT3 series! I was hoping you'd say it as a run on of the mill upgrade that was mostly cosmetic and not significant in terms the stiffness, skiability and ROM of the boot!!! You are now making it something I really want to try and potentially buy. You were that impressed with it as compared to the XT Frees?

Night and day. Not even in the same category as the older XT's.
 

BMC

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There’s a podcast on Blister with Cody Townsend. He said two things in connection with tech bindings that totally resonated with me. Excuse my (filtered) language - it’s his anyway, not mine.

Firstly he said on tech bindings; “They’re f#$@ing dangerous”.

And he said, and I’m paraphrasing here; “You should NEVER ski tech bindings in the resort”.

He went on to say yes he skis tech bindings while touring but there’s a risk acceptance issue and he knowingly accepted the risk.
 

anders_nor

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word, very very interesting, not so stoked on my new kingpin v-werks suddenly. but they are going on a ski only made for touring, and dont want to warn it.

But its insane to see how many people use tech for resort only.
 
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AlpedHuez

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Probably very premature to ask but does anyone know if a Duke PT 12/16 V-Werks version will be coming for the 21/22 line-up?
Why do you need/want that, in place of the PT 12/16 already here? For the weight savings? Is that what's holding you back from just getting the current PT?
 

markojp

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Tell me more, please. You have them or have skied them?

The following is just my opinion. I was given a pair of 140 LV's that I'll do a full write up on, but before that, I put a 130 on my foot and thought, 'wow! This is a real boot!' (For clarity, I have no official connection to or sponsorship from Lange.) The previous boots were very soft, have a very limited range of motion walkmode, a sort of sloppy lateral feel, the grillamid and not particularly progressive flexing and fragile, and were the definition of 'compromised with the best of intentions' hybrid boot.

The new boots are anything but that. This is a mature design. The upper and lower cuff connection feels much better, and the flex is progressive and more commensurate to the number printed on the box. I believe they've gained a few grams of weight over the XT free boots, but RoM is greatly improved. I have not skied them yet, but will at some point in Nov as my first day is usually skinning for turns That said, these won't be my primary shoe, but I do think the new XT3 series are legitimate contenders to join the top performing boots of the hybrid heap. I'm all for any boot that pushes the industry to higher standards of fit and performance.


FWIW, this is my shortlist of recent and current season standout boots. YMMV. This doesn't mean they are the best choice for everyone's feet, nor is it intended to take away from other very good boots on the market from manufacturers not mentioned that may in fact work significantly better for different individual fit needs.

Hybrid: Lange XT3 series
High volume: Tecnica Mach 1 HV series
Low volume: Head Raptor WCR series.
Mid Volume: Tecnica Mach 1 T-drive MV series.
Special category: Nordica HF series


.
 

ScottB

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There’s a podcast on Blister with Cody Townsend. He said two things in connection with tech bindings that totally resonated with me. Excuse my (filtered) language - it’s his anyway, not mine.

Firstly he said on tech bindings; “They’re f#$@ing dangerous”.

And he said, and I’m paraphrasing here; “You should NEVER ski tech bindings in the resort”.

He went on to say yes he skis tech bindings while touring but there’s a risk acceptance issue and he knowingly accepted the risk.

Cody said more in the Podcast to explain and qualify his remarks and that is important to include in any discussion. No Tech bindings have a DIN toe, only a DIN heel. (I am surprised at this, but probably is true) The toe is the most important part for safe release. All tech bindings either have the toe "locked out" or not locked. When locked out, you better not need to release, cause it won't and your body will break first (or the bindings rip the screws out of the ski). So big safety risk must be accepted if locking out the toe. If the toe is unlocked, all tech bindings will have an inconsistent release. There will be a good chance you release when you don't want to at some point. This will probably cause a fall, so whatever the consequences of that fall is the risk.

Personally, I would never ski tech bindings locked out in the resort. I would consider skiing them not locked out, but would ski very conservatively and on low risk terrain. I don't own tech bindings, so I don't spend any time thinking about it. If all you own are tech bindings, then you have some choices to make about skiing in a resort. I would say there is an approach that has lower risk than skiing "locked out", but much higher risk than skiing an alpine binding in the resort, so why do it. Get an alpine setup if skiing in the resort. I think that was Cody's point about resort skiing.
 

Doug Briggs

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Tell me more, please. You have them or have skied them?
I can't speak to the XT3s as I haven't had them on but I can confirm @markojp 's evaluation of the early XT Free. I couldn't get out of the fast enough and into the Atomic Hawx XTD. Fortunately, all boot makers have been making advances in the hybrid boots by leaps and bounds.
 

locknload

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The following is just my opinion. I was given a pair of 140 LV's that I'll do a full write up on, but before that, I put a 130 on my foot and thought, 'wow! This is a real boot!' (For clarity, I have no official connection to or sponsorship from Lange.) The previous boots were very soft, have a very limited range of motion walkmode, a sort of sloppy lateral feel, the grillamid and not particularly progressive flexing and fragile, and were the definition of 'compromised with the best of intentions' hybrid boot.

The new boots are anything but that. This is a mature design. The upper and lower cuff connection feels much better, and the flex is progressive and more commensurate to the number printed on the box. I believe they've gained a few grams of weight over the XT free boots, but RoM is greatly improved. I have not skied them yet, but will at some point in Nov as my first day is usually skinning for turns That said, these won't be my primary shoe, but I do think the new XT3 series are legitimate contenders to join the top performing boots of the hybrid heap. I'm all for any boot that pushes the industry to higher standards of fit and performance.


FWIW, this is my shortlist of recent and current season standout boots. YMMV. This doesn't mean they are the best choice for everyone's feet, nor is it intended to take away from other very good boots on the market from manufacturers not mentioned that may in fact work significantly better for different individual fit needs.

Hybrid: Lange XT3 series
High volume: Tecnica Mach 1 HV series
Low volume: Head Raptor WCR series.
Mid Volume: Tecnica Mach 1 T-drive MV series.
Special category: Nordica HF series


.
Great stuff. Thank you very much. The feel of the grillamid is mostly what I don't like. Agree with your take on the lack of the progressive flex. I like them but don't LOVE them. Looks like I have to go find pair to try on and compare. Looking forward to your full review of the 140 LV.
 

ScottB

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Tell me more, please. You have them or have skied them?

Blister has a podcast with a Lange Manager about the new XT3 series. Very informative. It was also said in the podcast that Lange is coming out next year (maybe 2021) with a much lighter boot more aimed at dedicated touring, but still very good downhill ability. My take was the XT3 boot is more of a sidecountry boot, more resort focused with "good but not great" uphill capability and reasonably light weight. I use a Atomic Hawx Ultra XTD which is pretty light weight and very very good uphill and very good downhill. I think Langes new boot that is not out will compete with the XTD boot I own. I ski a Lange RS140 in the resort.
 

markojp

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FWIW, the 140 doesn't feel significantly stiffer than the 130... I need to put them both on at the same time to confirm.
 

jmeb

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Cody said more in the Podcast to explain and qualify his remarks and that is important to include in any discussion. No Tech bindings have a DIN toe, only a DIN heel. (I am surprised at this, but probably is true)

1. "DIN" toe and heel isn't a good way to say it, we need to drop this lingo when what we mean is "Alpine DIN standard". DIN is too generic because there are handfuls of DIN standards to ski bindings, only one of which is the common Alpine release value.

2. Cody failed to mention (probably cause he was many drinks deep) the Vipec and Tecton. Both have lateral toe release a la alpine bindings. Both were DIN certified to the touring release standard. So they are "DIN toes".
 

markojp

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Blister has a podcast with a Lange Manager about the new XT3 series. Very informative. It was also said in the podcast that Lange is coming out next year (maybe 2021) with a much lighter boot more aimed at dedicated touring, but still very good downhill ability. My take was the XT3 boot is more of a sidecountry boot, more resort focused with "good but not great" uphill capability and reasonably light weight. I use a Atomic Hawx Ultra XTD which is pretty light weight and very very good uphill and very good downhill. I think Langes new boot that is not out will compete with the XTD boot I own. I ski a Lange RS140 in the resort.

The XTD and XT3's have a different enough fit that one or the other will choose your foot. Both are good boots for sure.
 

Doug Briggs

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I call 'tech' bindings 'pin' bindings as they use pins to hold the toes. The variation in heels now available is pin or traditional. I've been using Marker Kingpin 13s in the resort on dedicated powder skis for those really big days when I need them; these are my BD Carbon MegaWatts at 120mm underfoot. My only wider ski is a DPS Lotus 138. I prefer the BDs although the DPS have their moments.

I have found Kingpins to be quite reliable in bounds and great performers for touring. I wouldn't recommend pin bindings for extensive inbound use as they are, by design, lighter weight and more prone to wear, IMO.

I never ski with my toes locked; only when I'm climbing are the toes locked. I don't bump up the release settings with them, either. I ski than at the recommended setting for a Type III skier. I've never had an unexpected/undesired release. I have had them release when appropriate.
 

jmeb

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The XTD and XT3's have a different enough fit that one or the other will choose your foot. Both are good boots for sure.

That's interesting -- I'm in an XTD for touring for last 3 seasons. Master bootfitter put me into an RX130 LV this fall which I would've assumed is like the XT3?

But then I have a pretty easy to fit foot.
 

markojp

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That's interesting -- I'm in an XTD for touring for last 3 seasons. Master bootfitter put me into an RX130 LV this fall which I would've assumed is like the XT3?

But then I have a pretty easy to fit foot.

FWIW, The XT3 works much better for my foot volume than the RX and RS boots. Sure, I could make them work, but the Raptor alpine boots are a better fit, speaking only for myself and my feet of course. :)
 

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