Alpine-Touring hybrid setup

[ScottB]

Don’t make me listen to both podcasts! could you elucidate on what is interesting in the differences?

The Lange guy kept talking about reputation and how Lange was a skiers boot. Very downhill high performance biased. Seemed a bit narrow in his thinking. The atomic guy seemed much more tech savvy and talked a lot about what made a boot work well, what had been learned over time, and what they want to improve. Seemed very customer focused. I was much more impressed with the atomic guy. I have skied langes all my life but I am going to try on some Atomics for my "resort boot". I bought an atomic AT boot and really like it. I will see how I feel about Atomics race boots. My big 3 are now Lange, head, and atomic.

 

[markojp]

The Lange guy kept talking about reputation and how Lange was a skiers boot. Very downhill high performance biased. Seemed a bit narrow in his thinking. The atomic guy seemed much more tech savvy and talked a lot about what made a boot work well, what had been learned over time, and what they want to improve. Seemed very customer focused. I was much more impressed with the atomic guy. I have skied langes all my life but I am going to try on some Atomics for my "resort boot". I bought an atomic AT boot and really like it. I will see how I feel about Atomics race boots. My big 3 are now Lange, head, and atomic.

Thor from Lange is sort of a legend in the boot design world. You might not like his message, but he's very highly regarded by pretty much everyone in the industry.

 

[locknload]

I didn't think Thor was anti-customer...he spoke a lot about listening to their athletes in terms of what they like and don't like in their products. I appreciated his comments that Lange was sticking true to their identity e.g....they are a downhill ski boot company. His analogy with Scarpa was a good one (was it Scarpa...my old age betrays me)..anyhow...they aren't going to suddenly to make race skiing their emphasis. Lange is going to continue to bias toward downhill skiing in their free-skiing BC offerings but continue to incrementally improve performance along the way..I like that they are staying committed to a specific vision. In so many Industries--including the ski Industry--we see many brands trying to dabble in lots of offerings. Lange is, and will always be, a downhill ski boot company and their product strategy will be informed by that.

I also enjoyed the conversation about trying to figure out what the optimal weight of a BC boot should be...finding that "just right" combo of burly and responsive enough and not too heavy to make it exhausting on the way up. A lot of folks really geek out on the weight savings and I guess that matters if you plan to blast through 10 laps and a ton of vertical in one day, but I might go up and down 2 or 3 times on a BC outing and don't really care how fast I go up..I'll get there when I get there. However, once I get there...I REALLY want to enjoy the turns coming down. To each their own, I guess.

 

[parkrat]

Quick question:
When you guys say 'skiing in a resort', do you mean 'skiing on groomers'? In this context (Townsend saying that you shouldn't use tech bindings in the resort) I would understand. If you guys mean skiing in soft, ungroomed snow (inside or outside the boundary, wouldn't matter, I guess), then I would not understand Townsend's statement.
I ask, because in Europe we only have on-piste or off-piste. There are no boundaries that define a 'resort' (a term which is often used to refer to a village)... Just looking for some clarification here.

Skiing in a resort does not mean skiing on groomers. From the perspective of a skier, skiing in bounds means skiing where ski patrol does avalanche control.

 

[Cheizz]

Skiing in a resort does not mean skiing on groomers. From the perspective of a skier, skiing in bounds means skiing where ski patrol does avalanche control.

Thanks, that is what I understand it to be. It is somewhat different here in Europe, but still.
My question was specifically in ralation to a possibly elevated risk of using a tech binding inbounds. That question has been answered already. But thanks.

 

[James]

I also tried the Camox Freebird (dedicated touring version), but that one is too big of a sacrifice on the downhill.

Ooh, bursting my research bubble. Is your comment based on lift plus short skin then downhill?
I was narrowing that down as a possible touring ski. To be used with a lightweight tech binding. Mtn lab, Alpinist, Atk, etc. The problem is I have no frame of reference for these skis. Blizz Zero G I fear is too light and stiff and carbony for my taste. That’s only based on store handling.

Outdoor Gear Lab really liked Camox Freebird. Even in poor snow. See what you think-

Black Crows Camox Freebird Review

The Camox Freebird from Black Crows is right in the mix with the best backcountry skis on the market. The Camox is super stylish and ready to scream in a...

www.outdoorgearlab.com

 

[Noodler]

Ooh, bursting my research bubble. Is your comment based on lift plus short skin then downhill?
I was narrowing that down as a possible touring ski. To be used with a lightweight tech binding. Mtn lab, Alpinist, Atk, etc. The problem is I have no frame of reference for these skis. Blizz Zero G I fear is too light and stiff and carbony for my taste. That’s only based on store handling.

Outdoor Gear Lab really liked Camox Freebird. Even in poor snow. See what you think-

Black Crows Camox Freebird Review

The Camox Freebird from Black Crows is right in the mix with the best backcountry skis on the market. The Camox is super stylish and ready to scream in a...

www.outdoorgearlab.com

View attachment 127414

Don't count out Movement in your search. Yes, they're a bit pricey, but they sure make a nice ski. I should also mention Renoun as their skis are surprisingly light, but smooth and damp (due to their use of the VibeStop material). The Endurance 98 in a 184cm is 1771g. Not quite the 1600g of the Camox Freebird, but you're getting a bit more surface area with the 98.

 

[James]

Don't count out Movement in your search. Yes, they're a bit pricey, but they sure make a nice ski. I should also mention Renoun as their skis are surprisingly light, but smooth and damp (due to their use of the VibeStop material). The Endurance 98 in a 184cm is 1771g. Not quite the 1600g of the Camox Freebird, but you're getting a bit more surface area with the 98.

Interesting. It would be about 200gms heavier.
Would one really put a tech binding that’s 350-600gms on an Endurance 98?
I looked at the 88 too. That’s heavier than the 98, over 1900gms.
I saw Movement. SkiMoCo has them.
In their light line, the AlpTracks 100, OutdoorGearLab gave it best one ski tourer.

Then there’s Hagan for light too. Their construction is like a Vwerks Katana with very thin front almost no sidewall.

There’s just too many variables that I have no reference for. Are light skis terrible?
Do I want 85-88 or 92- 100? (I’d prefer 95 and under I think.)
I have the Dps 99 w/Shift.
Light or heavier? 178ish or 184ish?

I think I’m going to have to rent and try some stuff out.

 

[Cheizz]

For me, any dedicated touring ski (focus on light weight, no metal) is a no-go. Skinning up from the valley floor or longer tours are not my thing. So the 'problem' is with me not being into alpine touring in that sense. For a dedicated touring ski, the Camox Freebird is fine, I guess.
If I go touring, it's because all soft snow that is easily accessible from the lifts has been tracked out, or I am skiing in weird spring stuff. Anyway, I want a very stable, predictable ski that can hold my 90 kg without rattling, folding up under me or scratching. I have opted for a bit heavier construction of the Blizzard Rustler 10. At least skiing is stable and steady. Then only the up is outside of my comfort zone.

 

[Noodler]

For me, any dedicated touring ski (focus on light weight, no metal) is a no-go. Skinning up from the valley floor or longer tours are not my thing. So the 'problem' is with me not being into alpine touring in that sense. For a dedicated touring ski, the Camox Freebird is fine, I guess.
If I go touring, it's because all soft snow that is easily accessible from the lifts has been tracked out, or I am skiing in weird spring stuff. Anyway, I want a very stable, predictable ski that can hold my 90 kg without rattling, folding up under me or scratching. I have opted for a bit heavier construction of the Blizzard Rustler 10. At least skiing is stable and steady. Then only the up is outside of my comfort zone.

I'm right there with you. I refuse to compromise on the skis. I'm doing what I can to save the weight in the boots and the bindings, but I'm a total ski snob when it comes to the on-snow feel and performance of the skis. I doubt I would be happy on a ski that's under 1500g, but I'm trying to keep the skis under 2000g. Right now my target is about 1700-1800g options. I think I would rather go a bit shorter on a good ski to get to the target weight range than completely changing up the ski selection to something less desirable.

 

[Noodler]

Interesting. It would be about 200gms heavier.
Would one really put a tech binding that’s 350-600gms on an Endurance 98?
I looked at the 88 too. That’s heavier than the 98, over 1900gms.
I saw Movement. SkiMoCo has them.
In their light line, the AlpTracks 100, OutdoorGearLab gave it best one ski tourer.

Then there’s Hagan for light too. Their construction is like a Vwerks Katana with very thin front almost no sidewall.

There’s just too many variables that I have no reference for. Are light skis terrible?
Do I want 85-88 or 92- 100? (I’d prefer 95 and under I think.)
I have the Dps 99 w/Shift.
Light or heavier? 178ish or 184ish?

I think I’m going to have to rent and try some stuff out.

I think like with anything in skiing there is going to be the "optimal" choice versus the "compromise". I have decided to go with 3 setups that vary in width. Then I'll be able to choose the skis for the day pretty much like I usually do. I have my Fischer 108 Ti which I originally setup. I just started using my Stockli SR95 and I'll be adding the Fischer Pro MT 86 Ti. That gives me a wide, medium, and narrow option for touring. I guess I'm just a "quiver guy" at heart.

BTW - 200g per ski is nothing to sneeze at. That's the difference between my 108s and 95s and the difference was obvious on the up.

 

[James]

I think like with anything in skiing there is going to be the "optimal" choice versus the "compromise". I have decided to go with 3 setups that vary in width. Then I'll be able to choose the skis for the day pretty much like I usually do. I have my Fischer 108 Ti which I originally setup. I just started using my Stöckli SR95 and I'll be adding the Fischer Pro MT 86 Ti. That gives me a wide, medium, and narrow option for touring. I guess I'm just a "quiver guy" at heart.

BTW - 200g per ski is nothing to sneeze at. That's the difference between my 108s and 95s and the difference was obvious on the up.

What bindings are you going to put on those?
Blister had an interesting article on saving weight. The first guy thought boots. The next two didn’t agree, saying you can ski a light crappy ski with decent stiff boots, but not with super light boots.

Saving Weight in Your Backcountry Ski Setup | Blister

BLISTER | GEAR 101, Skiing, Skiing 101, Topic of the Week | October 26, 2019 | The most honest & in-depth reviews of outdoor gear

blisterreview.com

And this short article by a guide company breaks it down pretty simply into 3 categories.
————————
1. A dedicated lightweight touring setup – ideal for multi day ski touring.

2. A one ski ‘all rounder’ setup – used both for touring and resort skiing.

3. A lightweight freeride setup – for lift assisted skiing and day touring.
——————————

Backcountry Ski Setup Advice - expert advice from Alpine Guides and Backcountry Uk

Backcountry Ski Setup Advice from the Experts. Help in choosing a backcountry ski setup from ski professionals and mountain guides.

www.alpine-guides.com

I suppose this “Hybrid” thread is the 3rd category.
I guess I’m thinking about category 1. Then I’ll just have to do a multi day hut trip in the Alps. Just don’t know is I can stomach the reality of it for using it more regularly. It might be like buying a pow ski for once every few years.

Besides Movement Alp Tracks, there’s skis like the Dynastar M Vertical 88. Under 1200 gms in a 180 with a full sidewall.

Dynastar M-Vertical 88 F-Team Ski

Some days, snow conditions are all over the place with no way of knowing what you'll find. The slightest change in aspect, elevation, or weather can cause you to end up nervously staring down an icy couloir with girthy powder skis. Or perhaps a neck-deep ...

skimo.co

 

[Cheizz]

I'm right there with you. I refuse to compromise on the skis. I'm doing what I can to save the weight in the boots and the bindings, but I'm a total ski snob when it comes to the on-snow feel and performance of the skis. I doubt I would be happy on a ski that's under 1500g, but I'm trying to keep the skis under 2000g. Right now my target is about 1700-1800g options. I think I would rather go a bit shorter on a good ski to get to the target weight range than completely changing up the ski selection to something less desirable.

Yup, My thoughts exactly. On my Rustlers, I put the Fritchi Tecton 12. So now, it's my soft snow ski that I can tour with, but also ski in in-resort lift-access powder. The alpine-style heel-piece feels so much more stable than the pin-ones. That really adds to the 'stable ski' sensation. And proper toe-release as well.
So my touring set-up is by no means light-weight (1800 gr ski + 650 gr binding). But it is a very nice ski and binding that I completely trust when I ski it (the main thing for me, the downhill). And the setup is 'tourable' enough for the short (max 1 hr) and relatively flat tours that I do (to get away from the lifts and crowds basically, not to cover the vertical distance).

 

[pais alto]

Just because forums need semi-contrarians like me, I want to add a POV that if you emphasize having a lift-served type of ski/binding/boot over skiability and lightness when getting touring equipment then you’ll miss a lot of of the greatest places and skiing that exist a ways away from ski areas...but that’s fine with me. Some people just like it a bit wilder.

 

[Noodler]

Just because forums need semi-contrarians like me, I want to add a POV that if you emphasize having a lift-served type of ski/binding/boot over skiability and lightness when getting touring equipment then you’ll miss a lot of of the greatest places and skiing that exist a ways away from ski areas...but that’s fine with me. Some people just like it a bit wilder.

Quantify please. How far are we talking about (vertical and total distance)?

 

[Noodler]

What bindings are you going to put on those?
Blister had an interesting article on saving weight. The first guy thought boots. The next two didn’t agree, saying you can ski a light crappy ski with decent stiff boots, but not with super light boots.

Saving Weight in Your Backcountry Ski Setup | Blister

BLISTER | GEAR 101, Skiing, Skiing 101, Topic of the Week | October 26, 2019 | The most honest & in-depth reviews of outdoor gear

blisterreview.com

And this short article by a guide company breaks it down pretty simply into 3 categories.
————————
1. A dedicated lightweight touring setup – ideal for multi day ski touring.

2. A one ski ‘all rounder’ setup – used both for touring and resort skiing.

3. A lightweight freeride setup – for lift assisted skiing and day touring.
——————————

Backcountry Ski Setup Advice - expert advice from Alpine Guides and Backcountry Uk

Backcountry Ski Setup Advice from the Experts. Help in choosing a backcountry ski setup from ski professionals and mountain guides.

www.alpine-guides.com

I suppose this “Hybrid” thread is the 3rd category.
I guess I’m thinking about category 1. Then I’ll just have to do a multi day hut trip in the Alps. Just don’t know is I can stomach the reality of it for using it more regularly. It might be like buying a pow ski for once every few years.

Besides Movement Alp Tracks, there’s skis like the Dynastar M Vertical 88. Under 1200 gms in a 180 with a full sidewall.

Dynastar M-Vertical 88 F-Team Ski

Some days, snow conditions are all over the place with no way of knowing what you'll find. The slightest change in aspect, elevation, or weather can cause you to end up nervously staring down an icy couloir with girthy powder skis. Or perhaps a neck-deep ...

skimo.co

We seem to be following the same path at the same time. I recently read those very same articles. I know someday I'll own a dedicated touring setup, but I'm just getting my feet wet with the Daymakers setup for now. My plan is to find a touring boot next season that I think I can live with. Then I'll take it from there. I've already spent way too much on this sidebar activity and golf season is arriving in CO.

 

[pais alto]

Quantify please. How far are we talking about (vertical and total distance)?

Quantify? Shasta, the Tetons, the San Juans, the Sierra, the Cascades, the Sangre de Cristos, the Wasatch, etc. etc. Maybe ‘quantifying‘ it as places where you aren’t very near a ski area.

 

[James]

Nice! Now that’s impressive.
Of course we need to know the setup and how you feel about it. Boots/bindings/skis
Skis are around 100mm?

In Switzerland the guides were generally on tech bindings. Pretty small ones when I looked. I think maybe all I dealt with, but unfortunately I didn’t always pay attention. That was generally lift served with maybe some boot packing. Horizontal travel was once like 45 min. At some point we walked.

I think weight is fairly important to them. They may be carrying 2-3 pairs of skis besides their own for short hikes. I’ve even seen more.
I wished I’d paid more attention to the skis. I do remember some short alpiine Chams, maybe 106. In Chamonix, Dynastar seems to use guides as testers. I remember some prototypes and some Legends or Mythics, whaterver they’re called. Like 98-106. But I failed to notice the bindings.

Some are also big travelers, throwing a bunch of stuff in the trunk. Quiver killer type inserts are somewhat popular in Chamonix it seems.

 

[pais alto]

Set ups vary in those pics, they were taken over the years. Some Dynafits Verticals, some G3 Ions, even some Rottefella NTN Freedoms. Skis between 95 and 108, Blizzard Kabookies and Zero G 108s, PM Gear Bros, Black Diamond Drifts and Justice... Boots: Scarpa NTNs, Maestrales, and Spirit 4s, Salomon Explores, Dalbello (I forget the model).

My point is that insisting on heavy duty stuff - bindings, boots, skis - will cause one to be burdened if they head out for the high country, so it’s worth evaluating how much you like carrying heavy shit up hill. I’m a finesse skier, and I’ve learned how to ski hard stuff on lighter gear - it’s a skill that one can develop. I know this is a hybrid thread, but I just wanted to point out that heavier stuff can hold you back, depending on your goals...and bank account I guess.

Equipment vs. technique?

 

[neonorchid]

-

My point is that insisting on heavy duty stuff - bindings, boots, skis - will cause one to be burdened if they head out for the high country, so it’s worth evaluating how much you like carrying heavy shit up hill. I’m a finesse skier, and I’ve learned how to ski hard stuff on lighter gear - it’s a skill that one can develop. I know this is a hybrid thread, but I just wanted to point out that heavier stuff can hold you back, depending on your goals...and bank account I guess.

Equipment vs. technique?

The same was said in the totally deep podcast 86 Ross Herr of Dynafit -

(There is more but have a listen at 53m41s in)

Totally Deep Podcast 86 - Ross Herr of Dynafit - The Backcountry Ski Touring Blog

On Totally Deep Podcast Episode 86, Doug sits down with Ross Herr of Dynafit to talk all things ski touring gear and innovation.

www.wildsnow.com