Amazing shot

[Andy Mink]

This isn't necessarily a "gun thing", though a rifle was used. This is math like crazy. To hit an 8" target at 4.4 miles is mind boggling. Considering the top of the bullet path was over 2500' above the bore of the rifle, the bullet took almost 25 seconds to get to the target, and the bullet was only traveling a bit under 700 feet per second when it arrived...crazy. Throw in spin drift (the bullet spins and veers from its path) and, at this range, the rotation of the Earth (in 25 seconds what you shot at has moved!) this is amazing. If it weren't for gravity, I'd miss the ground at that distance.

 

[Posaune]

at this range, the rotation of the Earth (in 25 seconds what you shot at has moved!) this is amazing.

Isn't the gun and the atmosphere itself rotating? The bullet would rotate too from momentum, and if the shot was either aimed eastward or westward there is no lateral rotation at all, so this is not part of the equation. Also, I wonder (without any expertise in this matter) about the spin of the bullet. It's not on a surface where spin would create drift, but the top, bottom, and sides of the thing would work equally against the atmosphere, therefore negating any drifting. Isn't that what rifling is all about?

 

[Andy Mink]

Isn't the gun and the atmosphere itself rotating? The bullet would rotate too from momentum, and if the shot was either aimed eastward or westward there is no lateral rotation at all, so this is not part of the equation. Also, I wonder (without any expertise in this matter) about the spin of the bullet. It's not on a surface where spin would create drift, but the top, bottom, and sides of the thing would work equally against the atmosphere, therefore negating any drifting. Isn't that what rifling is all about?

From Gunwerks dot com: Spin drift or Gyroscopic drift, is a phenomenon caused by the right hand twist in our barrels. Due to the right hand twist, the nose of the bullet tends to offset slightly to the right during flight. The effect is that even under zero wind conditions, the bullet will impact to the right of center. The effect is more pronounced at ranges beyond 600 yards. The exact amount for a specific bullet is difficult to calculate mathematically but it can be done. The calculation is based on the stability factor of the bullet, the time of flight, the speed of twist, the physical length of the bullet and the air density.

From laxrange dot com: The Coriolis Effect is the idea that the Earth's rotation can influence the preciseness of your shot, moving the target away from the bullet as it heads towards it. To avoid these influences, extreme long distance shooters should try and make the proper adjustments.

 

[Posaune]

From Gunwerks dot com: Spin drift or Gyroscopic drift, is a phenomenon caused by the right hand twist in our barrels. Due to the right hand twist, the nose of the bullet tends to offset slightly to the right during flight. The effect is that even under zero wind conditions, the bullet will impact to the right of center. The effect is more pronounced at ranges beyond 600 yards. The exact amount for a specific bullet is difficult to calculate mathematically but it can be done. The calculation is based on the stability factor of the bullet, the time of flight, the speed of twist, the physical length of the bullet and the air density.

From laxrange dot com: The Coriolis Effect is the idea that the Earth's rotation can influence the preciseness of your shot, moving the target away from the bullet as it heads towards it. To avoid these influences, extreme long distance shooters should try and make the proper adjustments.

Not being a shooter, nor having ever owned a firearm I bow to your expertise.

 

[Dwight]

I haven't looked this up since I heard about it. Thanks for the link. Cool stuff and the barrel isn't as elevated as much as I thought. Of course, I'm thinking cartoonish elevated.

 

[scott43]

Rifling provides spin which increases accuracy but does have relatively minor side effects. Consider prior to rifling each shot was basically a knuckle ball...

 

[Andy Mink]

Not being a shooter, nor having ever owned a firearm I bow to your expertise.

Not my expertise by any stretch. Just a side hobbyist/enthusiast. I don't shoot long range, just read about it!

 

[Seldomski]

I'd be curious of the spread if they fired 10 more shots aimed the same way as the one that hit. 25 seconds is a long time for atmospheric effects to change the trajectory.

Was a person actually holding the gun or was it mounted in a tripod?

Edit: more info here

World Record Extreme Long Range Shot 4.4 Miles - Nomad Rifleman

On September 13, 2022 the World Record Extreme Long Range Shot was made at 4.4 miles in Wyoming by Nomad Rifleman.

nomadrifleman.com

Looks like someone was laying prone with the rifle for the shot.

 

[cantunamunch]

Was a person actually holding the gun or was it mounted in a tripod?

Edit: more info here

World Record Extreme Long Range Shot 4.4 Miles - Nomad Rifleman

On September 13, 2022 the World Record Extreme Long Range Shot was made at 4.4 miles in Wyoming by Nomad Rifleman.

nomadrifleman.com

Looks like someone was laying prone with the rifle for the shot.

Yeh, all the pictures show prone shooter and bipod.

You might have been thinking of Quigley shooters (still impressive in their own right)?

 

[fatbob]

It sounds less like shooting and more an iterative series of experiments. Obviously still takes a tremendous amount of planning and skill to even land shots in a zone where they can be spotted so no taking away from the team effort.

 

[graham418]

It helps to be lucky, too.

 

[DocGKR]

While serving in the military for nearly a quarter of a century, I was extensively involved in wound ballistic research. Tracking projectile shots at distance can reliably be done using a long range doppler radar system, although this is expensive and time consuming. An alternative is to use the elegant and relatively affordable Oehler Research System 88 which uses acoustic measuring with four microphones at the target--the System 88 measures initial velocity, time-of-flight to target, target impact point and computes an accurate long-range ballistic coefficient based on actual field results.

Use of doppler or acoustic measurements results in safe, rapid collection of data that allows quicker accurate hits on target at range.

 

[Varmintmist]

Another thing that affects the flight is the loss of stability when the bullet gets to around 1350fps and enters a transonic zone from supersonic to subsonic. The ballistic coefficient will be different, changing in flight and becoming less predictable.
Elevation is easy. Do the math and dial it in. The rest is witchcraft.
I have been shooting service rifle seriously (ish) for about 5 years. I am just starting to really be able to read wind well. No long range stuff yet although that is in the works. (2-300 is short range, 5-600 mid range, after that its considered long)
To understand the affect of wind on a bullet...... With this much effort involved they arnt shooting commercial bullets but lathe turned custom but the effects are the same. A 80.5gr .224 bullet at 2850 fps over 600 yards will take .8 seconds to get there and deflect almost a full MOA (6 inches) per each mph of wind acting on it directly from either side. Called a full value wind (3 oclock or 9 oclock) less with a half value wind from 1-2 oclock for example. A full on headwind or tailwind bring more fun and entertainment into the picture. A 10 ring at 600 is 18 inches in my sport. Aiming center means a 2mph wind will carry your impact into the 9 ring.
F-class the ring sizes are halved and shot mid and long range. At 1000yds the rotation of the earth is part of what will affect the flight.
I have shot ranges where there is left wind at 600, right wind and 300, and oncoming at the target according to the flags. I cant even imagine calling wind at 4 miles.

 

[Varmintmist]

Isn't the gun and the atmosphere itself rotating? The bullet would rotate too from momentum, and if the shot was either aimed eastward or westward there is no lateral rotation at all, so this is not part of the equation. Also, I wonder (without any expertise in this matter) about the spin of the bullet. It's not on a surface where spin would create drift, but the top, bottom, and sides of the thing would work equally against the atmosphere, therefore negating any drifting. Isn't that what rifling is all about?

Newtons law. There is no lateral force working on the bullet that is equal to the rotation of the earth once it leaves the barrel. An object at rest tends to stay at rest. The bullet is traveling a path that is aligned with the barrel at the time of launch.
Its kind of like the error that people make saying a bullet rises after it leaves the barrel. It doesnt. It always drops away from the plane it was at when it left the barrel cuz gravity works.

 

[Lorenzzo]

And as we know, the only exception to Newtonian forces is Michael Jordan.

 

[cantunamunch]

And as we know, the only exception to Newtonian forces is Michael Jordan.

...and pet fleas.

 

[Posaune]

There is no lateral force working on the bullet that is equal to the rotation of the earth once it leaves the barrel. An object at rest tends to stay at rest. The bullet is traveling a path that is aligned with the barrel at the time of launch.

The bullet has momentum given to it by the turning of the earth while it's in the gun. It doesn't loose the momentum just because it leaves the barrel. The gun is rotating with the earth and has no force working on it that is different from the bullet since the gun's momentum is continuous, as is the bullet's. And the air is also rotating with the earth, so it does not put any extra force onto the bullet relative to its momentum other than that created by weather. This is a non-issue. Other things must be in play, but not the rotation of the earth.

Another way to say it is that the earth, the gun, the bullet, and the air all are rotating together.

 

[James]

This isn't necessarily a "gun thing", though a rifle was used. This is math like crazy.

Pretty much why we have computers.


Breaking the German high command code ( much more complicated than Enigma)-
Colossus, a WW2 British digital computer, secret till the late 1980’s.

Einiac, US - Used for artillery and nuclear bombs.

I suppose you could put the Norden Bomb sight in there as an analog computer. It never achieved near it’s theoretical results in use. The Germans had stolen the plans for it, so the intense security around it was kind of moot.

 

[cantunamunch]

I suppose you could put the Norden Bomb sight in there as an analog computer. It never achieved near it’s theoretical results in use. The Germans had stolen the plans for it, so the intense security around it was kind of moot.

Meh, the British actually rejected it for being inaccurate AF - and the still-visible-in-the-80s bomb damage to my grandmother's neighborhood proves the RAF's point. I mean she was 5km from the stupid shipyard and further from the then-railroad.

I am convinced the whole Norden security campaign was a publicity stunt by the USAF to justify its daytime missions and thus the USAFs bureaucratic existence separate from the Army.

 

[Lorenzzo]

The bullet has momentum given to it by the turning of the earth while it's in the gun. It doesn't loose the momentum just because it leaves the barrel. The gun is rotating with the earth and has no force working on it that is different from the bullet since the gun's momentum is continuous, as is the bullet's. And the air is also rotating with the earth, so it does not put any extra force onto the bullet relative to its momentum other than that created by weather. This is a non-issue. Other things must be in play, but not the rotation of the earth.

Another way to say it is that the earth, the gun, the bullet, and the air all are rotating together.

At the moment the bullet leaves the rifle that’s true. Are the relevant timeframes the same? What about air movement and friction at time+?