Ankle Flexion--Active or "Passive"?

[AmyPJ]

I also realized that one of my gripes with boots and footbeds, etc. is that nothing seems to keep my medial malleolus (that's the ankle bone on the inside) from collapsing. Creating tension through dorsiflexion does.

Is it possible that those of us with low-volume feet and extra mobility in the joints benefit from tension more?

 

[Lauren]

I found the Ron Kipp video on tension. Yes, it describes exactly what I'm working on, right down to the equivalence to riding a horse with the heels down. Tomorrow's word of the day while skiing will be TENSION!

I like to think of it as riding a bike with skis on. Balance over the spindle is very important. Too far forward, your toes dive forward and your skis tips hit the ground. Too far back and you end up with no control over the front end of the bike. Tension in your ankles keeps your skis level on the pedals and saves you from disaster.

Bonus that it puts a funny picture in my head.

 

[Tony S]

I sympathize, actually: all these noobs, should first ski really well to deeply know what they seek and only then come to us for instructions, tips, patterns and concepts. It's so annoying when they try to do it the other way around and ask for advice before knowing what they are seeking... as if they think us instructors know what to seek... so weird!

Quotable!

 

[LiquidFeet]

....Is it possible that those of us with low-volume feet and extra mobility in the joints benefit from tension more?

There are so many ways individual anatomy affects what we think of as necessary for making good turns. Some stuff is just not generalizable to the entire skiing population.

This one you bring up rings a bell for me since my whole body acts like a rag-doll. Maintaining "functional tension" (as opposed to rigidity) has been an issue for me all along, all joints included. Getting the ankle under control has been especially important in this regard.

So true.

 

[Sledhead]

To the OP: Correction to my previous post: In regards to Kipp’s words in his “Flex the Ankles” video, I wrote “cone of tension” when I meant “cone of stability”. It is Kipp’s theory of the cone of stability in reference to the CoM and BoS that corresponds with my boot fitting theory of the “cone of tension” designated by our boot shells (I say “my” knowing full well the basic concept is, as are all similar fundamentals, eternally ubiquitous). It is an alignment correlation between the biomechanical and mechanical aspects of skiing. Maintaining a "high end" CoM to BoS relationship requires ankle tension throughout the entire turn (and transition) that requires a very certain boot fit and alignment.

Razie, I would like to respond to your last few posts but I really am having my keister skied off and, with my NFL forum during wildcard w/e, I’m straight out with nickel vs dime package defense as one of my long technical posts is getting torched from multiple directions. Go figure. Just want to say that I enjoy your witty quips and humorously entertaining approach with your opinion. Makes the reading all the more interesting. I might add that, with your style of writing, I don’t feel confident that I am able to accurately quantify what it is exactly you may be implying at times and do not like working with bad aim. I’m sure I will pick it up as I go.

 

[dj61]

I also realized that one of my gripes with boots and footbeds, etc. is that nothing seems to keep my medial malleolus (that's the ankle bone on the inside) from collapsing. Creating tension through dorsiflexion does.

Is it possible that those of us with low-volume feet and extra mobility in the joints benefit from tension more?

In my experience when you really have to work muscles in order to make correct movement that is often an indicator that your body is not sufficiently prepared and trained. Feet and calf muscles are often neglected in workouts. And so is training the muscles in feet and legs in coordination. When trained properly (no exercise equipment!) all movements should feel natural and fluid without any “tension”.

 

[markojp]

In fairness, if someone has only recently started exploring tensioning the ankle, it's very likely to take time to acclimate. Then there's 'functional tension' vs. 'tension'.. the former uses only what is necessary and retains mobility, the latter impedes it, but learning where that line is takes some mileage and experimentation.

 

[AmyPJ]

In fairness, if someone has only recently started exploring tensioning the ankle, it's very likely to take time to acclimate. Then there's 'functional tension' vs. 'tension'.. the former uses only what is necessary and retains mobility, the latter impedes it, but learning where that line is takes some mileage and experimentation.

I'm at that point now. I've been playing around with focusing on just lifting the toes vs. strongly dorsiflexing vs. a little of both. Seems the tactics change a bit depending on the terrain. We haven't had changing conditions here for two+ weeks so haven't had a chance to play around with the differences in crud, powder, etc.

 

[LiquidFeet]

It should be pointed out that if a skier doesn't dorsiflex
but just stands on their skis like they stand on the floor,
their leg-ski connection will look like this

...and to get themselves to do this instead

they may have to feel like they are doing this

until one day, finally, dorsiflexing on skis
becomes so natural that they look like
this even when just standing around.

 

[Rdputnam515]

@AmyPJ
Optimal balance is where your body has to perform the least amount of muscular effort to stay upright/balanced. This means you want to stand as neutral on your foot as possible. Don't try to actively pressure any part of your foot when taking on a neutral stance in a basic alpine position. The best way to find your stance is to ski with unbuckled boots. If you do it right there should be no difference in skiing with your boots buckled. How you stand in an unbuckled boot is how you should stand in a buckled boot. Imho people are overly obsessed with having shin pressure while it is really not that important. Being balanced is important, shin pressure is a result. Sometimes you have it, sometimes you don't and that is okay. Being too far forward is a very common problem amongst good skiers, especially level 1 and 2 instructors and sometimes even level 3 instructors.
And a boot that puts you in a forward position imho is a problem.

i believe the shin pressure thing is a result of coaches and instructors trying to teach an aggressive posture and stance. The shin pressure is an indicator you are in that type of stance and not sitting back. that does not mean it should be the goal of the skier to mash the boot, it is just a misinderstood and over relied upon cue

 

[Sanity]

i believe the shin pressure thing is a result of coaches and instructors trying to teach an aggressive posture and stance. The shin pressure is an indicator you are in that type of stance and not sitting back. that does not mean it should be the goal of the skier to mash the boot, it is just a misinderstood and over relied upon cue

For mogul skiers it's more than that. Tip pressure has benefits for skiing direct lines.

 

[Rdputnam515]

I'm aware of certain groups of skiers that advocate a centered position, but for competition mogul skiing the goal is to pressure the shins, and it does have real physical benefits, because it increases pressure on the tip of the ski. Olympic mogul skiers will tell you to pressure the shins for short radius turns. You can turn sharper by pressuring the tip. Also, the tip digging in can provide speed control on the backside of the bump. One way to visualize it is to imagine that the ski is tipped with a steering angle at the beginning of the turn. If you can apply pressure to the tip it will bite and bend. Once bent, the ski will arc according to that bent radius. I believe your analysis is entirely based on sidecut, and that's an ideal approximation to a good carved turn, but ultimately in real skiing there are many factors that control a turn. If you just want to do perfect RR track turns with a carver ski on the groomed, then centered is best, but if you want to try to get lots of different types of performance out of the ski based on different circumstances, then you may want to apply shin pressure at times. If you want to do quick short radius turns with speed control on a mogul ski, then you definitely want continuous shin pressure.

i Use this concept when skiing moguls as well and it is really helpful. Your skis are far more responsive and quicker edge to edge (even subtle boot inputs) giving much greater control.

my question: how much of this is actual shin “pressure”? Are we really exerting much pressure or are we using this as a cue to an aggressive stance where we can control the ski? I dunno, I know for sure if I don’t feel the tongues of my boots in bumps it is going to be a rough ride lol

i see we were replying to each other’s posts at the same time. HA

 

[Sanity]

i Use this concept when skiing moguls as well and it is really helpful. Your skis are far more responsive and quicker edge to edge (even subtle boot inputs) giving much greater control.

my question: how much of this is actual shin “pressure”? Are we really exerting much pressure or are we using this as a cue to an aggressive stance where we can control the ski? I dunno, I know for sure if I don’t feel the tongues of my boots in bumps it is going to be a rough ride lol

To increase pressure on the tip you need to increase pressure on the cuff. It's a tool in the toolbox.

 

[Rdputnam515]

For mogul skiers it's more than that. Tip pressure has benefits for skiing direct lines.

I agree totally.

is this a function of ski input or is the benefit relate to keeping your body mass moving fluidly down the fall line in control?

I agree totally on the benefits of tongue pressure and preach it to my wife, I’m trying to understand the physics behind the benefit

 

[dj61]

It should be pointed out that if a skier doesn't dorsiflex
but just stands on their skis like they stand on the floor,
their leg-ski connection will look like this
View attachment 155657
...and to get themselves to do this instead
View attachment 155660
they may have to feel like they are doing this
View attachment 155658
until one day, finally, dorsiflexing on skis
becomes so natural that they look like
this even when just standing around.
View attachment 155659

In my view it is misleading to suggest that an athletic ski stance results from dorsiflexion. It is the result of several muscle groups working together: abdominal, glutes, hamstrings, calfs, quads, ankle, etc.

 

[Sanity]

i Use this concept when skiing moguls as well and it is really helpful. Your skis are far more responsive and quicker edge to edge (even subtle boot inputs) giving much greater control.

my question: how much of this is actual shin “pressure”? Are we really exerting much pressure or are we using this as a cue to an aggressive stance where we can control the ski? I dunno, I know for sure if I don’t feel the tongues of my boots in bumps it is going to be a rough ride lol

i see we were replying to each other’s posts at the same time. HA

I agree totally.

is this a function of ski input or is the benefit relate to keeping your body mass moving fluidly down the fall line in control?

I agree totally on the benefits of tongue pressure and preach it to my wife, I’m trying to understand the physics behind the benefit

Tip pressure helps the ski turn quicker and also provides speed control. Most people can't control their speed in a direct line and the reason is because they don't know how to get forward pressure slicing across the backside of the bump. Absorption and extension provides a smooth ride even with continuous cuff pressure.

 

[markojp]

Interesting what words drop onto and out of the conversation... 'contact' vs. 'pressure'. Amy hit it on the head when mentioning things happening inside the boot vs. outside. Standing in the liftline resting on the tongues is very different than activating muscles/movements inside the boot. Of course nothing is exclusive, but working inside the boot developes awareness of the large outcomes small movements close to the snow can have on our skiing.

 

[Rdputnam515]

Just to throw a wrench in here


i think the biggest problem many skiers have in pow, crud/variable snow is lack of active dorsiflexion. active dorsiflexion defiantly helps keep tips up and keeps tips from being knocked around so much

 

[Sanity]

I’m trying to understand the physics behind the benefit

Besides the tip scraping and turning sharply, there's also an advantage being on the cuffs when the tip reaches the base of the bump. With pressure on the cuffs, the skis can straighten out under the skier, i.e. extension with no physical effort. Pressure ends up on the face of the bump or in the trough instead of the backside of the bump even though the boots are still over the back side. Instead of accelerating with pressure on the steep backside, the legs just straighten. Some mogul skiers like the progressive flex boots like Full Tilt that give a nice smooth flex response.

 

[jimtransition]

Just to throw a wrench in here


i think the biggest problem many skiers have in pow, crud/variable snow is lack of active dorsiflexion. active dorsiflexion defiantly helps keep tips up and keeps tips from being knocked around so much

So dorsiflexion can help maintain tip pressure, whilst also keeping the tips up!?