Ankle flexion

[RoninSkier]

I think it is a good indicator of being forward. Dorsiflexion is mostly the result pulling your feet back using bigger muscles like glutes and hamstrings. Dorsiflexion is not what brings you forward.

But part of getting forward, hooking up the shovels & connect the entire edges to appropriately flex the ski and generate the turn.

 

[RoninSkier]

Flat skis don’t turn. He’s not turning by simple ski pull back. That’s absurd. Look how much edge angle he gets.

Many years ago they taught beginners to turn in snowplow by pushing the outside ski forward. The ski is already edged and has steering angle.

Indeed, without some inclination + pressure there is no flexing of the ski, no turning power.

I think Butler is showing an alternative to 'stepping or shifting forward' to pull the new outside foot back while developing edge angle.

Still a way, a tip, to teach the needed motor function to initiate a carved turn. Another key is to make sure the student is centered, not in the back seat, so that they can use the necessary muscle groups to pull back while rolling the new outside foot or just banking.

 

[LiquidFeet]

Flat skis don’t turn. He’s not turning by simple ski pull back. That’s absurd. Look how much edge angle he gets.

Many years ago they taught beginners to turn in snowplow by pushing the outside ski forward. The ski is already edged and has steering angle.

What you say is true, but what I said is not absurd.

Pulling that foot back (extending that leg backwards), when the skier is heading at some angle across the slope, changes the relative position (laterally) of the foot and the CoM. It also elevates that side of the body, tilting both legs downhill. These two things flatten then edge the ski.

 

[cantunamunch]

Indeed, by itself is not enough, you still have to pull back, extend etc, but I don't think we can afford to let it be passive and with an open ankle, there is no forward.

For instance, when you flex, if you don't dorsiflex as you release, you will be so far back you can never bring them back enough... unless you're strong kind of WC level athlete.

Even for the Essentials fans, it is a primary movement not some ternary outcome.

For the Essentials-clueless, are primary movements independently cued? or cued by other muscular action?

 

[BaysideSkier]

Here's that same tip targeted at intermediates in a video by Rob Butler.

The new outside ski pull-back will start a turn without any other action. I've taught it. The pull-back lengthens that leg. As it extends to get the foot back behind the body, the body tilts, the leg tilts, and the ski tips to the BTE. The extension automatically transfers weight to that ski, and generally simplifies the initiation. For intermediates who can already turn, but who may be a bit back-seat, this fixes that issue by getting that stance foot back behind the CoM at the top of the turn. It's real easy to learn.

I just got back into skiing this year after a 35 year hiatus. I skied 6 times so far, and on this past Friday I started pulling the uphill ski back and it made a huge difference for me. I automatically started doing it after my third run and immediately it made a noticeable improvement in my turning and skiing. Now watching the Rob Butler video puts it together nicely for me. Thanks for posting it

 

[Prosper]

This video about hips was posted in the Deb Armstrong/Advanced Lesson short turns, bumps thread. Sounds like a variation on a theme that results in ankle dorsiflexion. Seems like Scott really starts to get it at about 7:20 when Deb suggests layering driving the inside knee with the driving the hip forward movement. Gonna have to try this next time I’m on the snow.

 

[razie]

For the Essentials-clueless, are primary movements independently cued? or cued by other muscular action?

Not sure what you mean "cued" but to be precise, they are "movement categories" and each is independent. Each is generally a coordinated action of several muscles, for instance flexing the leg, which involves bending at all 3 joints.

 

[dan ross]

Good video . I thought her brothers take on ankle flexion was spot on- most people myself included , are often hesitant to make that leap of faith at speed and steep to get that knee as far forward as it should be and pressure the tip and drive it into the turn. I sometimes have to remind myself to keep the pressure on or more accurately it’s done for me when a more neutral stance ends up loading the tail and that never ends well.

 

[dan ross]

Not sure what you mean "cued" but to be precise, they are "movement categories" and each is independent. Each is generally a coordinated action of several muscles, for instance flexing the leg, which involves bending at all 3 joints.

This is referred to as the “ kinetic chain” by my PT guys and we’ve spent a lot of time working on this. . Nothing like several months in PT to get you aware of how everything works in concert.

 

[Mike B]

What you say is true, but what I said is not absurd.

Pulling that foot back (extending that leg backwards), when the skier is heading at some angle across the slope, changes the relative position (laterally) of the foot and the CoM. It also elevates that side of the body, tilting both legs downhill. These two things flatten then edge the ski.

"That foot." As I recall you have said to pull the inside foot back many times. I think I know what you mean and you have good intentions, but what you usually say is different than this video describes. Words can get lost easily. Just sayin'.

 

[LiquidFeet]

"That foot." As I recall you have said to pull the inside foot back many times. I think I know what you mean and you have good intentions, but what you usually say is different than this video describes. Words can get lost easily. Just sayin'.

You can pull both feet back. Good idea sometimes.

 

[Chris V.]

Pulling back inside foot usually leads to outside foot going back, but if that fails...you know.

 

[RoninSkier]

This video about hips was posted in the Deb Armstrong/Advanced Lesson short turns, bumps thread. Sounds like a variation on a theme that results in ankle dorsiflexion. Seems like Scott really starts to get it at about 7:20 when Deb suggests layering driving the inside knee with the driving the hip forward movement. Gonna have to try this next time I’m on the snow.

Besides being an olypian Armstrong is a master instructor/coach.

This clip helps reinforce in me the techniques of appropriate stroking of the ski (fore aft wt distribution/control), to be more naturally stacked (not squatted), using the inside knee and the importance of driving the turn through the heel pad.

This is how to instruct / coach - and how to take lessons, how to be coached -
The student is receptive, has the skill base & ready to learn the next steps, refinements
Instruction & feedback is real time - the instructor is hyper observant & analytic.
Instruction is appropriately incremental, layered on one technique/refinement on another
Appropriate use of +ve observations + critique of flaws.... and the student realizes and sees the need to inspect and improve his flaws. The student is ready, really receptive to learning.
I think the student, Scott, all of us, should ask more questions - not to make a point, but to verify/validate for himself so that he/us leaves the session with lessons imbedded, with little or no doubts.

Just excellent.

 

[JESinstr]

"That foot." As I recall you have said to pull the inside foot back many times. I think I know what you mean and you have good intentions, but what you usually say is different than this video describes. Words can get lost easily. Just sayin'.

Pulling back inside foot usually leads to outside foot going back, but if that fails...you know.

Since my objective is to manage all forces through the center of the arch, the location of my feet in relation to my mass takes care of itself. Just sayin.

 

[BaysideSkier]

Great video especially this part
Seriously another great video by Deb. This is where pulling the uphill ski back (which becomes the new outside/downhill ski) as stated in my previous post, like in the Butler video, and Deb demonstrates by pushing on the island counter really helps me.

 

[Mike B]

Since my objective is to manage all forces through the center of the arch, the location of my feet in relation to my mass takes care of itself. Just sayin.

For you it's the center of the arch. Do you think it's the same for everyone with different bodies, boot and ski setups?

The point is pulling "a foot or feet back" - which foot, both feet, when and where?
Your BOS and COM is yours. Do you think it's the same for everyone? Is your dirt and intent the same as mine? How about your ramp angle, forward lean, flexibility, delta, ski radius, boit stiffness, ski tune, snow conditions, etc, etc?

If your point is to manage the relationship of the COM to BOS, then we all agree. The other junk is personal beyond your wildest dreams. Millions of variables are involved.

 

[markojp]

For you it's the center of the arch. Do you think it's the same for everyone with different bodies, boot and ski setups?

The point is pulling "a foot or feet back" - which foot, both feet, when and where?
Your BOS and COM is yours. Do you think it's the same for everyone? Is your dirt and intent the same as mine? How about your ramp angle, forward lean, flexibility, delta, ski radius, boit stiffness, ski tune, snow conditions, etc, etc?

If your point is to manage the relationship of the COM to BOS, then we all agree. The other junk is personal beyond your wildest dreams. Millions of variables are involved.

Why so combative? I have no idea what JES skis like, his binding and boot setup, etc..., but have no trouble understanding what he's saying... if i can feel the bottom of my feet (through the arch as a starting point) connected to the bottom of my boot, things generally work better for both myself and those we're coaching/training. Your mileage is welcome to vary. If someone's boot setup is a problem (too big, too much volume, poor alignment) then that's a different mess all together.

 

[JESinstr]

For you it's the center of the arch. Do you think it's the same for everyone with different bodies, boot and ski setups?

The point is pulling "a foot or feet back" - which foot, both feet, when and where?
Your BOS and COM is yours. Do you think it's the same for everyone? Is your dirt and intent the same as mine? How about your ramp angle, forward lean, flexibility, delta, ski radius, boit stiffness, ski tune, snow conditions, etc, etc?

If your point is to manage the relationship of the COM to BOS, then we all agree. The other junk is personal beyond your wildest dreams. Millions of variables are involved.

Without question, the end game is to manage the relationship of COM to BOS. The key to that IMO is that the skier needs solid, identifiable feedback to accomplish that task.

Being that I am skiing on the edges of my feet and being that (in a turn) I am directing pressure to the inside edge of the outside ski, it is the back of the ball of my outside foot and the front of my outside heel that act as foundational "pillars" for my arch. Just as we can feel the tension in our shins from dorsiflexion, I feel the tension in my arch providing sensory input on balance, especially fore/aft.

This is job one when it comes to teaching beginners proper balance. Else, the heel likely becomes the sole indicator for many.

 

[no edge]

I will strongly half-disagree as I have worked on this more over the last few weeks. But I will clarify. Ankle dorsiflextion really comes into play for the INSIDE ski early in the turn. It is mandatory to acheive high edge angles. As I described in another post, you use the inside ski's edge to "pull" your inside leg shorter. That then changes your overall ski stance, and increases your outside edge angle. Without that "ankle squeeze", it just does not seem to work. For the outside ski, ankle dorsiflexion (actively using your shin muscles) is probably meaningless. So I would say you are right as it relates to the outside ski

Good post. Dorsiflexion is closing the ankle and I would suggest that the calf muscle is lengthened thus a need for joint mobility. Joint mobility makes it easier on the total movement. Plantar Flexion is the stronger of the two muscles. It's the gas pedal movement and the sprinter's speed. The strength comes from the calf (with help from the hams). Deb Armstrong's video about pulling the outside ski back was somewhat confusing to me. But I tried it on the hill and it made total sense (almost). I found that what I was doing lacked strength and speed.

It has been said that Plantar Flexion is not used much in skiing. I use it in the bumps, also when steering on low angle.

 

[James]

It has been said that Plantar Flexion is not used much in skiing.

By whom?