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Another sad story of a hit and run incident

Jacob

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99.5% of the time, I'm with you ... but that's not always 100% true. I've had people start off from the side of the run just below me without looking up the run to see what's happening - and thereby closing a gap with another skier and leaving me precious little room ... haven't hit anyone yet, and hope I don't, but I'm darned if #1 supersedes #4 under those circumstances ...

Personally, I treat anyone who’s stopped as if they’re just moving very slowly. Just like anyone else who is moving, I assume that they could fall over, accelerate, or turn in front of me at any moment, and I give them space accordingly. I never treat them like an immobile object that is safe to ski near.
 

Pequenita

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Check in at the patrol shack and give a statement? The one time I've been in a similar situation that's what I did and they were grateful to be able to complete their paperwork.

I provided to our clinic instructor(!), but the other woman didn’t seek medical services until the next day. What a doozy. I didn’t know at the time that she was also in the clinic (I missed orientation the night before and didn’t meet everyone).
 

Goose

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I disagree, and I don't think it's close either. :) The average speed of the average skier would be so much lower without a lot of grooming, that even an increase in falls or collisions (which I don't think there would be) would probably lead to less injuries and less severe injuries. People ski way slower when conditions are difficult for them, in general.

That said, I'm fine with the amount of grooming at most resorts.
But (if I/we may debate some more on this :) )
so very many more people do lose control and also do so many more times as those groom conditions turn. And imo it would be proportional as the worse it becomes, the more the fails.

Id agree in general majority of the skiing will likely be a bit slower but that imo would not outweigh the amount of fails. lets also not forget that fails resulting in injury is of course not just skier collision related but people also get hurt via the ski fail all by themselves too.

On another note, speed can be very deceiving as well and of course is only relative to something else.. Certainly higher speed in just about anything generally means more severe injuries. But that is never at all an exact science and there are endless amounts of exceptions to that rule. Many people do get injured having falls and fails or accidents at slower speeds. And often enough it can be serious.

But I also think a lot of that is because even at the slower average speeds we might see in such conditions, skiers are still moving fast enough for potential serious injury especially when combined speed of two are added even if only partially added via not being head on. Plus add the factors of gravity, momentum, G-forces, and awkward equipment that are extensions of our body, etc.... We really imo dont have to be traveling all that fast to be seriously injured skiing.

And so Im still in the camp that scaling back the groomed would result in more potential injuries. I agree it can work some at minimizing the careless irresponsible speed demon idiots. But imo adds more danger over all. Those are my initial theory on it but im certainly open to be convinced otherwise. :)
 

oldschoolskier

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Agree with everything except what's bolded. A skier can "cut people off" as much as they want and not violate the skier's code. It is up to the "cutee" to avoid the "cutter".

The scenario that comes to mind: Skier A is doing short radius and med radius turns on a slope and is below/in-front-of skier B. Skier B is making long radius turns (or no turns) and is above/behind skier A. Skier A does a series of turns that puts him directly below skier B ("cutting him off"). Skier B does not avoid skier A and collides with him. Skier B has violated the skier code. Skier A has not violated the skier code.

It is dangerous to promote the idea that skiers should not "cut off" other skiers. The code says nothing about this. It does say that the skier above/behind SHALL avoid the skier below/in-front.
Curting off sort of like pull out slow from a parking lot, another direction of traffic etc.

In the skier A and B case, skier B is up hill has line of sight and in this case for collision to occur is passing, B is at fault not A.

A was skiing the “Lane” or as we consider it slope...B passed with little consideration of A....

Again 54 years of skiing does teach you the rules, not as you wish them to be understood. Similar to driving.
 

Goose

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Agree with everything except what's bolded. A skier can "cut people off" as much as they want and not violate the skier's code. It is up to the "cutee" to avoid the "cutter".

The scenario that comes to mind: Skier A is doing short radius and med radius turns on a slope and is below/in-front-of skier B. Skier B is making long radius turns (or no turns) and is above/behind skier A. Skier A does a series of turns that puts him directly below skier B ("cutting him off"). Skier B does not avoid skier A and collides with him. Skier B has violated the skier code. Skier A has not violated the skier code.

It is dangerous to promote the idea that skiers should not "cut off" other skiers. The code says nothing about this. It does say that the skier above/behind SHALL avoid the skier below/in-front.
I agree with most said here. In my opinion the skier uphill must be the one to curb his/her apatite and adjust it to all the surroundings especially with a skier/skiers ahead. We cant just do what we want even if we think in the right.

whether the person in front decided to cut across or even another trail cuts into yours from one side. Basically even if we have the right of way we still have to curb and sacrifice before hand and be extremely aware how we are skiing when above. There is no difference because when a person is in the hospital it really doesn't matter if you were correct cause that's not curing your injuries nor the other persons.
 
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Paul Lutes

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I, for one, want every run groomed fresh while I'm riding up the chair .......

Remember, sooner or later, we all end up on groomers.
 

François Pugh

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You’ve driven in say India or Pakistan?


“Average skier” is generally not the problem.
Maybe. I mean 40 yrs ago grooming was nothing like today. I’m not sure speed was less. Not sure.

I got hit by a teenage asteroid on a basically empty mogul trail. The moguls failed to slow him down apparently, but hitting me stopped us both cold, and I wasn’t even moving before.
The problem is the speeding adrenaline junky getting his fix with complete disregard for who might be in his/her path and skiing or riding out of control such that he/she (it's usually he) is not able to avoid hitting people ahead.

Speaking as a recovering adrenaline junky, albeit one who respected others and only endangered himself and a few moguls (drove one of my super-gs half way through one at Tremblant years ago) and saplings, less grooming won't stop those people.
 

Prosper

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This past Thursday I was skiing at Keystone. It was around 9am and I was on a slightly steeper pitch of a green run doing pivot slips in the middle of the trail so going quite slow. It was generally pretty empty and I was the only one on that pitch. A very intermediate skier skiing at a moderate pace skis by me within about 10 feet. It wasn’t really close but I didn’t really understand why, when he had the entire width of the trail, chose to ski so relatively close to me when he easily could’ve chosen to be more than 100 feet away. I was clearly visible from above from quite far away. I see this frequently and it doesn’t make sense.
 

ADKmel

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YES. Not my thoughts; reaction was posted in comment section of newspaper story.

And... before dismissing them as simply "troll" behavior, note that I posted that comment b/c it very closely echoed my own scary experience yesterday. Skiing a pretty direct short-swing line on north face of Mt. Snow when a straight-lining snowboarder brushed by me at what felt like 50 mph. When I got to the lift, he was still there with a bunch of friends and, not feeling up to a big scene, I simply and emphatically stated "You know, downhill skier ALWAYS has the right of way".
Guy just looked at me and said "well, what could I do; you were taking up the whole trail turning everywhere".


Must be a MT Snow attitude- years ago a skier actually got so close to me our boots almost locked buckles! I was skiing no poles and had to PUSH him off me. At the lift I did cause a scene- I ski in a groomer width lane on the edge - I asked why he had to come so close, when it wasn't crowded, he didn't care about downhill skier has the right of way.

His excuse was similar- "what did you want me to do- you were skiing the edge and making so many turns" I called him a duffus he got more enraged the 20 something continued his lousy attitude and called us (friends w/me) all F-ing this and that. Thankfully the Lifty took his ticket when he realized what was going on- Need more Lifties that will pull tickets IMO
 

ADKmel

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More and more, I think passing a quick written test on safety is needed before being allowed to buy a lift ticket. 10 simple questions ought to do it!

Okemo used to have an online test to get a special entry pass to go into the boarder area that had Huge Jumps, rails etc
We pass out the skiers code to all our students at my Mt as part of our lessons and spend lift rides quizzing new students on them.
 

markojp

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I respectfully disagree completely.
I think your are extremely underestimating the amount of spills and collisions that would take place. I think id be lenient when suggesting that probably 80% of the ski population (as a whole) has too much trouble once grooming slips. I mean heck,...just look at any average groomed ski run in the morning when the groom is fresh vs later day when its all spoiled up and see how many more people are down.
Maybe not as much in this unique community but by and large we can thank grooming (next to only lift service) for its current popularity. There are tons of people of all levels that never or only rarely come off the groomers and ski their whole lives that way.
Of course every positive is not without a negative. But you cannot remove or cut back or slack on something that the far majority of skiers (from beginners to advanced and everyone in between) count on for their safe and enjoyable skiing. Its still much safer even with the risk of the irresponsible speed demons than it would be if you slacked off on the grooming. Even very many good skiers (tons of folks) tend to have more mistakes and struggles as the grooming slips away.

In my opinion you are way underestimating just how many accidents and injuries there would be. You prevent "some" percentage of one type of danger yet add a much larger percentage of another type. keeping groomed and even grooming more is far the lessor of the two evils and i dont even think its close. And if you groom less over all then the groomed area will be even more crowded and they then become more dangerous too.

Plus on another note and partially due to some the things mentioned far too much of the entire ski industry depends on and banks on groomers. The resorts to equipment and every single financial aspect about it would not be what it is today imo without grooming.

Yet somehow all of us who grew up skiing in the 60's, 70's, and 80's somehow survived... and without helmets and on straight skis.... blows the mind, eh?
 

Goose

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Yet somehow all of us who grew up skiing in the 60's, 70's, and 80's somehow survived... and without helmets and on straight skis.... blows the mind, eh?
Well, yea we survived. As far as I ever remember people getting injured was in a way sort of always a part of skiing.
As kids we also survived toys that were made with sharp edges, with mechanics that could seriously hurt a finger/hand, and toxic paints and or materials.

Funny though you mention helmet,.. I actually never hit my head hard from a ski fall or accident. Until the very first year i ever wore a helmet about 6 yeasr ago (yes i was late the helmet party) . . I took a spill while moving pretty good and flipped over and the whiplash slammed my head into the hardpack. I saw stars and was experiencing dizziness for next two to three days certainly had concussion. Had I no helmet I have no doubt I would have (at best case) been in the hospital that day. Who knows how much worse it could have been. Its the hardest Ive ever hit my head doing anything ever. All those decades of skiing and falling and yet never hit my head at all till the first season i wore the helmet. Just wow. But thank god i had one on.

But back to the groom. Groom has always created a less difficult skiing. And less difficult means less fails. Sure it also means faster and that adds danger but imo still outweighed by less overall fails. imo
 

Jacob

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Yet somehow all of us who grew up skiing in the 60's, 70's, and 80's somehow survived... and without helmets and on straight skis.... blows the mind, eh?

I’m pretty sure some people died skiing in those decades. I’d be willing to bet money on it.
 

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