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Are the wealthy ruining our ski teams?

slow-line-fast

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Feb 3, 2021
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Following a league race the coaches ‘inherited’ the problem of pulling B nets that had been groomed and frozen in…. no fun. We got a few out - probably the rest stayed there until summer
. B-nets need to be set and/or reset almost every day (a daily task for those teams that leave their nets up is freeing them from the ice - they need to be able to move).
 

hbear

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What about the ones that don't have enough passion to stick with it? It's a lot easier to give up when you have wealth to fall back on.

If they give up then they don't have enough passion. Again wealth doesn't promote nor stifle the passion, it's either there or it isn't.
Having otions does not change the passion, it just means you have options. Frankly, to turn it around, with an abundence of options (especially options with better financial prospects) it's pretty special that one still chooses to pursue such a difficult sport, full of suffering despite not having a pot of gold at the end of the rainbow.
 

hbear

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ba32a94b364250dc335fcc47c53c3beb.png
As a golfer I get it, Travino's story is special.
But fail to see how that applies to having passion or not. Pressure sure, but as you know Travino was backed by wealthy people during his hustler years.
 

ejj

Prairie Skier
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Minneapolis
So I grew up in Minneapolis and raced on the local hills. Same place where a few kids did really well. Now I’m old and have two daughters that do the same thing.

I would disagree with anyone thinks that small-hill USSA racing in the Midwest is affordable. The money spent by some families in the effort to increase competitiveness is pretty crazy.
 

arkay

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FWIW, back in ancient days the freestyle jumps were off limits to anyone not on the resort team and only used under close coaching supervision... Big most of us didn't wear helmets LOL

These days the larger ones typically come with a requirement of riders earning a "Park Pass" safety certification before allowed to hit the big jumps. The smaller and medium ones (and even some large ones depending on the resort) are a free for all.. which still kind of shocks me..
Couldn't agree more. At Killington, you can jump right into the park that has 12 foot halfpipe walls, etc. And don't get me started about the steel rails and terrain park features at most resorts that could kill you or change your body for life. Don't understand why ski resorts have this stuff. Jumps are one thing, metal objects that don't move are something completely different.
 

Rudi Riet

AKA songfta AKA randomduck - a USSS coach, as well
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James

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I think what some greatly underestimate is time on snow and time training gates. Just because you have a lot doesn’t mean you’ll be good, but without it you can be good but not competitive. Even being 98% as fast as the fastest say in two runs of slalom, say 100 secs, means you’re 2 seconds back. It’s a cruel sport.

There was a podcast that had Jeff Lackie, one of Mikaela’s former coaches (he still was at the time), on. You got almost nothing about coaching her, but one of the big things was their managing the time on snow. He said, including all the races plus training, the amount of timed runs they had in a year was 11 hours. That’s it. And actually getting that with weather issues etc., wasn’t easy.
What we don't hear quite as much is that his mother's family owned and operated Tamarack, at the time probably the best summer tennis camp in the Northeast. Tennis was very popular and Tamarack was booked solid. My college GF coached there. Bode hung out there during the summer as a young kid, and developed a hell of a game.
Can’t remember where I found this. Bode as a toddler at Tamarack-
3BD4D00D-F563-482F-AE96-B48988A91C14.jpeg


Curious as to what was Bode’s time on snow and running gates up through high school was like? Similar to others, more/less?

Notice how many ski areas no longer feature halfpipes as part of their terrain parks. The liability of running them is super high.
I doubt that’s actually the reason. I can’t see it being more than the fairly insane jumps built with regularity. For the casual user, the half pipe is largely self limiting. Real danger comes when you start to get significantly out above the lip. This just isn’t going to happen for just about everybody. It’s terrifying for one so it’s not going to happen again for awhile.

I have no problem taking just about any intermediate kid in if there’s not a crowd. Jumps? No way. It’s too easy to get height and end up in a heap.
I think rails are actually the top injury producer, but serious injuries probably come from jumps and half pipe.

I would say the reason half pipes disappear is the expense of making them. I’ve heard the figure of 900,000 gallons of water for snow making for our pipe. And that’s not a big one. Maybe 15-18 ft high depending on the year. Years ago for a couple seasons we had an advertised super pipe, 22ft, with a minimum (long) length and pitch. I have been told our super was actually only 20 ft.

So then there’s that time/energy to blow the snow. After the snow, it’s like two weeks or more of pushing snow, often with two or three groomers, plus a small excavator. Then once you get it close you’ve got to cut it with a specialized pipe cutter that goes on the front of a groomer. I’m sure that thing isn’t cheap.

So, it’s a huge commitment for a mountain. Most of the public don’t ever go in. Somehow there’s a perception that they’ll suddenly be in the X games, ten feet above the lip. Not going to happen. Many regular skiers complain about the resources devoted to it, especially in low snow years.

As a side note, not sure I’ve ever seen a decent pipe at Killington though they certainly could’ve had one. Mt Snow or Stratton over the years, and Okemo. Some have been total garbage not worthy of the name.
 

Wilhelmson

Making fresh tracks
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About 20 years ago Sugarbush had a big half pipe set up. It was icy as hell. I mustered up enough guts to hit it fast and got some big air, 180ed, and actually landed it. The coach happened to see me in the pipe and offered to train me. I stupidly declined because I didn’t consider myself a good skier, and it actually scared the crap out of me. But at least I got one good jump in.
 

x10003q

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I think what some greatly underestimate is time on snow and time training gates. Just because you have a lot doesn’t mean you’ll be good, but without it you can be good but not competitive. Even being 98% as fast as the fastest say in two runs of slalom, say 100 secs, means you’re 2 seconds back. It’s a cruel sport.

There was a podcast that had Jeff Lackie, one of Mikaela’s former coaches (he still was at the time), on. You got almost nothing about coaching her, but one of the big things was their managing the time on snow. He said, including all the races plus training, the amount of timed runs they had in a year was 11 hours. That’s it. And actually getting that with weather issues etc., wasn’t easy.

Can’t remember where I found this. Bode as a toddler at Tamarack-
View attachment 162333

Curious as to what was Bode’s time on snow and running gates up through high school was like? Similar to others, more/less?


I doubt that’s actually the reason. I can’t see it being more than the fairly insane jumps built with regularity. For the casual user, the half pipe is largely self limiting. Real danger comes when you start to get significantly out above the lip. This just isn’t going to happen for just about everybody. It’s terrifying for one so it’s not going to happen again for awhile.

I have no problem taking just about any intermediate kid in if there’s not a crowd. Jumps? No way. It’s too easy to get height and end up in a heap.
I think rails are actually the top injury producer, but serious injuries probably come from jumps and half pipe.

I would say the reason half pipes disappear is the expense of making them. I’ve heard the figure of 900,000 gallons of water for snow making for our pipe. And that’s not a big one. Maybe 15-18 ft high depending on the year. Years ago for a couple seasons we had an advertised super pipe, 22ft, with a minimum (long) length and pitch. I have been told our super was actually only 20 ft.

So then there’s that time/energy to blow the snow. After the snow, it’s like two weeks or more of pushing snow, often with two or three groomers, plus a small excavator. Then once you get it close you’ve got to cut it with a specialized pipe cutter that goes on the front of a groomer. I’m sure that thing isn’t cheap.

So, it’s a huge commitment for a mountain. Most of the public don’t ever go in. Somehow there’s a perception that they’ll suddenly be in the X games, ten feet above the lip. Not going to happen. Many regular skiers complain about the resources devoted to it, especially in low snow years.

As a side note, not sure I’ve ever seen a decent pipe at Killington though they certainly could’ve had one. Mt Snow or Stratton over the years, and Okemo. Some have been total garbage not worthy of the name.
Here is the Killington waste of space Super Pipe - 5 minutes ago off the Bear Mtn cam
Screenshot (144).png
 

Moose32

Attacking the Fall Line
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780
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Niwot & Whitefish (via WNY)
Here is one of the most famous spots in ski racing, the train bridge over the Lauberhorn. The had some gates set right in the middle, with a sign inviting the public to try some turns, They were well anchored break away gates, and they were still there late in the day. No one was standing by to fix them, they still made it through the day. Just say'n.

View attachment 161749
Very cool. There is a speed trap (where it times your speed) a few hundred yards after the bridge on the right. It is one of a few in the Grindelwald/Wengen resort area.
 

James

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Here is the Killington waste of space Super Pipe - 5 minutes ago off the Bear Mtn cam
View attachment 162492
There’s no snow on the trail above either. So they just chose to not make snow in that area. Has been a tough year to make snow.
I’m surprised someone hasn’t come out with a structure to greatly reduce the amount of snow needed for a half pipe.

In terms of racing, earlier this year I went looking at Marco Odermatt’s slalom record. Low and behold, he did a couple races at Dartmouth Skiway. But his schedule was a little different. A week after that he was racing in Switzerland, then a week after that Sochi, Russia. Then back to Switzerland.

Birthday is Oct 1997. So age 18-
6E73A53E-24A9-44BB-90B1-01CD3A349CA2.jpeg
 

x10003q

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There’s no snow on the trail above either. So they just chose to not make snow in that area. Has been a tough year to make snow.
I’m surprised someone hasn’t come out with a structure to greatly reduce the amount of snow needed for a half pipe.
There is a ton of manmade snow in the huge park they created on Dream Maker above the super pipe. After Dream Maker park, lower Dream Maker and Grizzly trails (they run into the super pipe) are closed and the you have to funnel out onto lower Skyburst. There is another park off the Sky Peak HSQ called the Stash. When I was there, I would have rathered they had a few more trails off the Skye Peak HSQ.
 

Muleski

So much better than a pro
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Re: Odermatt and the 2016 Dartmouth Carnival, the field was absolutely STACKED. The Swiss brought a bunch of guys to North America before the Junior Worlds, to make a bunch of NorAm starts, which they followed up with Dartmouth. He was 19 at the time. Have a number of friends who based on the GS results can say that "they beat Marco Odermatt in GS." I bet that it's one of the more unique GS hills that he's ever seen, BTW!

They look like they flew back to Switzerland, then on to the Junior Worlds where he won the GS. Two years later is when he won the DH, SG, GS and AC.

I'm going to send a couple of "remember that day" texts, Haha.
 
Last edited:

Martinr007

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Feb 14, 2018
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15
I suspect Europe does a better job of socialized access to ski resorts. Golf and tennis here have public municipal venues that are much lower cost (golf) or even totally free of charge (tennis). I suspect that's how Europe seems to have a much deeper supply of experienced skiers and thus racers per capita than America does.

Can some Euros chime in here? Is it more affordable for AVERAGE folks in Austria, Italy, France Switzerland, Norway, Sweden, Germany. etc to ski than it is here?
I've 4 x girls, all started skiing at 3 years old and started in the local race club (in France) at 6 years old, they're now aged 10,12, 14 & 15. Total cost this year for the winter season is €2,900 ($3,163) for the club, that includes all race entries throughout the season and all the skis, waxing and tuning. The eldest 2 have 2 pairs of SL, GS and SG, the younger two have 1 pair of SL, GS and SG (just longer GS').

The youngest skis 3 times a week (Wednesday 1/2 day at school and weekends) and the other 3, 5 days a week (2 x half days during school, Wednesday afternoon and weekends) so get a lot of skiing during the season. They don't attend a special race academy, just a regular school that has a sport section that lets kids out of school to ski (providing grades and behaviour are above average)
Lift passes are €95 $103) each for the season.

The older 3 do summer and Autumn glacier training and normally get 20 - 30 days doing this, normally the costs are about €350 - 450 for each 7-10 days trip (lift pass & accommodation all in). The kids stay 6 in a room in dorms and the coaches cook to keep costs down :)

As others have said it really is a way of life here, loads of kids get into skiing and go through the race system as all their friends at school are doing it, then at end of U14 / entering U16 they cut them back (brutally in my opinion) to those that have the potential to go further and those that are "just" good enough to be instructors. The clubs don't do it to make money, they do it for the love of skiing, to produce racers and I guess the prestige of potentially saying they have the best club in France (or Switzerland, Italy, Austria etc). There are annual club meetings where all parents are invited, get to see the clubs accounts and see the aims for the year in terms of fund-raising. Lots of local businesses sponsor the club and that helps reduce the price of catsuits, jackets, skis etc down.

At races, competent parents are expected (and do) help with course setting, netting, slipping the course, erecting tents for food stalls etc, everyone chips in.

Contrast this with British academies and race events in the Alps. The "event team" (and there are normally loads of them) are staying in 5 star accommodation and have everything paid for them. That's why the races are $65/day just for the privilege of entering, not including lift pass. If I were to attend one of these week long races with my 4 x girls I'd be $1,040 just for entry fees!

There's a number of race academies in the alps now (British run) that charge an arm and a leg for entry ($32K+ a season) and it blows my mind compared to the local clubs. They are purely in it to make money, if you can pay, you're good enough, regardless of ability. In France it doesn't matter how wealthy you are, if you're not good enough you're kicked out of the top level racing to race in lower grades and then do instructor training.
 

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