• For more information on how to avoid pop-up ads and still support SkiTalk click HERE.

Are the wealthy ruining our ski teams?

jt10000

步步高升
Skier
Joined
Apr 21, 2019
Posts
1,128
Location
New York City
Ever notice how kids go to the park, work endlessly on their skiing, video one another, analyze performances to perfect moves, hang out for hours with their friends, all for free.......But if a kid gets near a training course (assuming it's even accessible) they're told in no uncertain terms they don't belong.....Hmmmm, if you were a kid where would you go? It's not just about wealth.
My kid's in a "devo" (pre-racing) program where they ran gates a few times once this year. And he so badly wants to do it again. If there were gates we could do himself he'd jump in it. if there was a little lift to do stuff like that on his own and with his friends, he'd LOVE it.
 

jimtransition

Out on the slopes
Skier
Joined
Nov 15, 2016
Posts
473
Location
Niseko/Queenstown
Isn’t that describing NASTAR? Obviously there are some differences, i.e., extra (minimal) fees, not open all of the time, etc., but NASTAR is supposed to be cheap, fun racing accessible to everyone. Or at least that was my impression.
For sure that describes nastar, but in my experience nastar courses are set to allow everyone to ski them, so they are of little use for training beyond a certain level of (low) skill. In contrast, US parks often have features that only a minority can actually trick.
 

pchewn

Skiing the powder
Skier
Joined
Apr 24, 2017
Posts
2,607
Location
Beaverton OR USA
Ever notice how kids go to the park, work endlessly on their skiing, video one another, analyze performances to perfect moves, hang out for hours with their friends, all for free.......But if a kid gets near a training course (assuming it's even accessible) they're told in no uncertain terms they don't belong.....Hmmmm, if you were a kid where would you go? It's not just about wealth.

Absolutely great idea: Put "vertical" terrain park features on a portion of the terrain park run. Those features would look like alternating red/blue poles stuck in the ground. See what the skiers and boarder do with that. I'd use those features in the "terrain park" !!!
 
  • Like
Reactions: JPL

Average Joe

Out on the slopes
Skier
Joined
Jul 5, 2017
Posts
554
If Bob Beattie were still with us he’d get a smile reading this thread. The same issues led him to create Nastar as a means to introduce all ages to the joys of ski racing, and lead them towards race programs. Of course , at that time, the academy system was not as dominant as it is today, the push was to strengthen the ski town clubs in places like Steamboat, Aspen, Stowe, North Conway , etc. Before the current arms race, young skiers like Buddy Werner or Billy Kidd grew up in towns with easy acces, and were the products of strong local clubs.
Today the landscape is much different, both here and in Europe. But the fundamentals remain the same: more time on snow as a youngster is critical to long term success. When you drive through Austria and see T Bars on slopes rising from the back of a small town high school or recreational park, you realize quickly how we here in the US are at a geographic and cultural disadvantage.
To make up for that, money buys time on snow, here and abroad, thus this topic will continue for a loooong time….
 

Seldomski

All words are made up
Skier
Joined
Sep 25, 2017
Posts
3,052
Location
'mericuh
Tim Duncan didn't start playing basketball until 9th grade. He was on track to become an Olympic swimmer when a hurricane knocked out his only training facility on the island. Instead of quitting athletics completely, he moved to basketball, and the rest is history.

Does anything like that ever happen for skiing - in any country? Is it really impossible to be an athlete in some other sport, then transition to skiing at a later age when it becomes convenient or obvious that you have a natural knack for it over whatever sport you were pursuing, or unable to compete at a high level in what you were doing? Maybe unlikely in US given the $$ factor with other sports. But does this happen in other countries where skiing professionally is more lucrative/possible?
 

crgildart

Gravity Slave
Skier
Joined
Nov 12, 2015
Posts
16,324
Location
The Bull City
Tim Duncan didn't start playing basketball until 9th grade. He was on track to become an Olympic swimmer when a hurricane knocked out his only training facility on the island. Instead of quitting athletics completely, he moved to basketball, and the rest is history.

Does anything like that ever happen for skiing - in any country? Is it really impossible to be an athlete in some other sport, then transition to skiing at a later age when it becomes convenient or obvious that you have a natural knack for it over whatever sport you were pursuing, or unable to compete at a high level in what you were doing? Maybe unlikely in US given the $$ factor with other sports. But does this happen in other countries where skiing professionally is more lucrative/possible?
If any athlete could transition to skiing and pick it up fast, I'd go with hockey players.. also a pretty expensive sport..
 

Rudi Riet

AKA songfta AKA randomduck - a USSS coach, as well
SkiTalk Tester
Contributor
SkiTalk Supporter
Joined
Nov 12, 2015
Posts
2,462
Location
Washington, DC
Does anything like that ever happen for skiing - in any country? Is it really impossible to be an athlete in some other sport, then transition to skiing at a later age when it becomes convenient or obvious that you have a natural knack for it over whatever sport you were pursuing, or unable to compete at a high level in what you were doing? Maybe unlikely in US given the $$ factor with other sports. But does this happen in other countries where skiing professionally is more lucrative/possible?

There are two cases I can think of where alpine ski racers pivoted to other pro-level sports: Tyler Hamilton and Levi Leipheimer were both fairly high-level alpine racers who moved to professional road bike racing, with the catalyst for both being injuries suffered while skiing. In Leipheimer's case: he was already ascending the junior road bike racing ranks while he ski raced, but a back injury sustained at a speed race in Wyoming sealed the deal in terms of dedicating his focus to bicycles.

To @crgildart's suggestion, I've seen alpine racers who have great hockey bona fides, such as the Crist brothers (Zach and Reggie) who were both top-level junior hockey players in Sun Valley/Hailey as teenagers. Both of them made the USST and left hockey behind.
 

Smokee

Booting up
Skier
Joined
Feb 3, 2018
Posts
5
Hockey, like ski racing, requires a significant amount of parental involvement when it comes to logistics, not to mention money
 

noobski

Out on the slopes
Skier
Joined
Dec 29, 2020
Posts
569
Location
Midwest
I don't think the wealthy are ruining it, I think the costs are so astrominical that only the wealthy can afford to do it and compete. The costs are really limiting the pool we have of athletes that will be able to compete.
This is the case here. There are some "for-profit" clubs, but most are kid-centered and are well meaning. But the ones we do is still $2k+ a year for 2 kids. We also do "recreational department" sponsored team sports too (baseball, etc) and that's still $100-$300 per season per team. Not to mention forced volunteer time and drive/gas costs. We budget $4k a year for extracurricular activities like this. That's simply a lot of dough. County Median Income where I live is about $70k for a family...so that's 6% just for kids sports...so you don't have to overthink it: it's not a wealthy jumping in and ruining it, it's just expensive and only folks who have discretionary funds can justify the costs.
 

Jack skis

Ex 207cm VR17 Skier
Skier
Joined
Nov 16, 2015
Posts
886
Location
Fidalgo Island, WA
NASTAR, sure it isn't/wasn't anywhere near "real" ski racing, but it is/was a way to let anyone run a few gates, get a time, and use your handicap score to compare yourself to other across the country. Did it create any ski racing talent? Some USSA team members have said that's where they started, which doesn't prove much. Certainly it costs much less to run and maintain than a terrain park, and is usable by probably, Ok perhaps, more skiers than a terrain park. NASTAR Nationals usually has participants from infants to octogenarians. For some it's a way to create more interest in watching higher level ski racing, which would be a good thing. And finally, one doesn't have to be wealthy to participate in NASTAR.

I used the is/was wording as NASTAR is not thriving, and has declined since Vail replaced it out for their own race series. I have skied at CB since Vail first arrived here and the Vail race series has not appeared on the hill. Hell, I don't even know if it still exists. NASTAR at CB was discontinued by the owners prior to the Vail purchase. I have not forgiven them for that.
 

ScotsSkier

USSA Coach
Industry Insider
SkiTalk Tester
SkiTalk Supporter
Joined
Nov 12, 2015
Posts
3,150
Location
North Lake Tahoe, NV
Absolutely great idea: Put "vertical" terrain park features on a portion of the terrain park run. Those features would look like alternating red/blue poles stuck in the ground. See what the skiers and boarder do with that. I'd use those features in the "terrain park" !!!
Sorry, but to all those of you here who think you can just set gates in the ground and go away and leave them for people to run, you have obviously never had to set and maintain a race course. Unlike parks where rails etc. are fixed structures, gates are designed to break away, are NOT permanently secured and get knocked out of the snow with great regularity, especially with inexperienced racers. Thus it takes continuous maintenance just to keep getting them back in the ground. Strong odds that without this half the gates would be gone after a dozen people had gone through (just ask the Nastar crew how much work is involved). You also need to think about how you control safety on the course so you dont get people catching up others, coming across fallen racers, skis etc in the track. I know it is a nice thought to think someone can just stick a few gates in the ground at the start of the day and nothing else is required but the reality is very different and maintaining the course and managing course safety is a continuous and labor intensive job. Hint: we dont have several coaches and radios on a training hill just to employ coaches! ogsmile
 

jonc

Putting on skis
Skier
Joined
Sep 27, 2016
Posts
109
Location
Washington D.C.
As a person who loves ski racing, but never raced myself, I really appreciate the insights provided here.

Thank you!

Even as a big fan of this niche sport, my impression is ski racing in the US is content to remain a niche sport.

The message I've received as a fan is (granted these are isolated interactions) "you didn't race growing up or attend a ski academy so you don't understand this sport." This is how I've been talked to when casually bringing up racing to those involved as something I enjoy watching. I've watched just about every WC race for the last 6 years. Ski racing has quite an uphill battle with DEI when even an upper middle class white person who skis recreationally 60+ days per year doesn't feel welcome.
As a race kid parent who did not grow up skiing let alone racing I can tell you that message of “you didn’t do it so you don’t get it” is pervasive but most coaches are just happy to introduce somebody new to the sport.

In my opinion the biggest barrier is access to slopes, there are only so many people within a short driving distance of a ski mountain (or small hill). Of those, most didn’t grow up skiing so likely don’t think about throwing their kid in a race program which takes up an increasing number of days as they get older. There is definitely a cost, but this can be kept fairly reasonable until you start looking at academies. It takes a LOT of time on the mountain to become good at skiing/racing. For other sports which might draw people away its very easy, convenient, and socially acceptable to go out and play soccer, basketball, tennis, run track, etc….
 

Johnny V.

Half Fast Hobby Racer
Skier
SkiTalk Supporter
Joined
Nov 12, 2015
Posts
1,426
Location
Finger Lakes/Rochester NY
Yes, it's too bad NASTAR seems to be stuck at it's current levels-it's a great way for never evers to get bit by the racing bug. Does it lead kids to bigger things? Maybe, maybe not, but it helps the general public get a slightly better understanding of what it is all about. Our home hill had a pretty flat "race park" that was open on occasion and available to the GP. Disappeared during the covid period, but we could see it again sometime.
 

jonc

Putting on skis
Skier
Joined
Sep 27, 2016
Posts
109
Location
Washington D.C.
For sure that describes nastar, but in my experience nastar courses are set to allow everyone to ski them, so they are of little use for training beyond a certain level of (low) skill. In contrast, US parks often have features that only a minority can actually trick.

Nastar is a nice way to introduce people to race courses but there aren't that many Nastar courses around. One issue I've seen with ski racer development is the improvement is very much internal skill improvement with no easy criteria to compare against which leads to faster times. Park skiers are constantly trying, testing, perfecting tricks, it's very easy to see if you or your buddy landed it or not, it's much harder to tell if you skied faster, more cleanly, or with better technique than the last run.
 

pchewn

Skiing the powder
Skier
Joined
Apr 24, 2017
Posts
2,607
Location
Beaverton OR USA
Sorry, but to all those of you here who think you can just set gates in the ground and go away and leave them for people to run, you have obviously never had to set and maintain a race course. Unlike parks where rails etc. are fixed structures, gates are designed to break away, are NOT permanently secured and get knocked out of the snow with great regularity, especially with inexperienced racers. Thus it takes continuous maintenance just to keep getting them back in the ground. Strong odds that without this half the gates would be gone after a dozen people had gone through (just ask the Nastar crew how much work is involved). You also need to think about how you control safety on the course so you dont get people catching up others, coming across fallen racers, skis etc in the track. I know it is a nice thought to think someone can just stick a few gates in the ground at the start of the day and nothing else is required but the reality is very different and maintaining the course and managing course safety is a continuous and labor intensive job. Hint: we dont have several coaches and radios on a training hill just to employ coaches! ogsmile

Sorry, but to all those of you here who think the terrain park is just "set once and forgotten", you obviously have never had to set or maintain a terrain park. You obviously have never even been in a terrain park and seen the maintenance crew smoothing the transitions, adjusting the height of the features, re-aligning after being dislodged. It takes continuous maintenance just to keep the features in place and safe. You also have to think about safety in the terrain park so you don't get people catching up to others, jumping on each other, skis and boards at the landings, etc. Hint: we don't have several terrain park people working on the hill just to employ the park rats!

Seriously, when I see a terrain park, I see as much if not more maintenance and care as on a race course. I do think a race-course section could be established and maintained by the same terrain park people and in the same run as the terrain park features. I don't think anyone was stating that you "can just set gates in the ground and go away".
 

Moose32

Attacking the Fall Line
Skier
Joined
Dec 17, 2018
Posts
780
Location
Niwot & Whitefish (via WNY)
Some of the issues here have always existed. They may be getting worse, but they have been around forever.

In 1973 I watched a pre-NorAm race in Vermont. One local Vermont farm kid skied very well, but the rest of the field had its share of rich elitists. The joke of the day was he skied so fast because "his coach put up a cow for first place".

In the early 1980's I was friends with a high school kid in Colorado. State Champ in both XC running and skiing. He went to CU, and could not make the starting team, which was nearly all Scandinavian. By his senior year he was sort of stuck in a rut, not much faster than as a freshman, and still not on the team I remember thinking when Colorado's best skier can't make Colorado's team, we need to do more to develop our kids, not the foreign students.

I don't know any answers, I just know the problems aren't new, and may not be the main issue.
This is the same dilemma Ph.D. programs face at top schools. Both seem to be leaning towards developing global talent regardless of where it was sourced. At least on the Ph.D. side, most grads choose to stay in the USA.
 

newfydog

Making fresh tracks
Skier
Joined
Nov 23, 2015
Posts
834
This is the same dilemma Ph.D. programs face at top schools. Both seem to be leaning towards developing global talent regardless of where it was sourced. At least on the Ph.D. side, most grads choose to stay in the USA.
Yep, I met a Polish geophysicist on a trip to Bhutan who came from a program at Colorado School of Mines which did not have a single American enrolled. He worked in Saudi Arabia after graduating.
 

jonc

Putting on skis
Skier
Joined
Sep 27, 2016
Posts
109
Location
Washington D.C.
Jeremy Bloom played starting quarterback for University of Colorado and crushed it on the FIS and Olympic Moguls..


This is a great example and I firmly believe that many athletic skills (power, speed, agility, proprioception, balance, etc...) are transferrable to other sports. They can be developed in one sport and make it that much easier for an athlete to be successful in another. There are many examples of pro athletes who were multi-sport successes at a high level.
 

Sponsor

Top