Are the wealthy ruining our ski teams?

[ScotsSkier]

Sorry, but to all those of you here who think the terrain park is just "set once and forgotten", you obviously have never had to set or maintain a terrain park. You obviously have never even been in a terrain park and seen the maintenance crew smoothing the transitions, adjusting the height of the features, re-aligning after being dislodged. It takes continuous maintenance just to keep the features in place and safe. You also have to think about safety in the terrain park so you don't get people catching up to others, jumping on each other, skis and boards at the landings, etc. Hint: we don't have several terrain park people working on the hill just to employ the park rats!

Seriously, when I see a terrain park, I see as much if not more maintenance and care as on a race course. I do think a race-course section could be established and maintained by the same terrain park people and in the same run as the terrain park features. I don't think anyone was stating that you "can just set gates in the ground and go away".

whoops! silly me! Obviously I shouldn't believe my lying eyes.! After all, working at a major mountain 5days/week and frequently riding the lift that passes over the top of the terrain park, as well as coaching on the adjacent slope, I must be blind blind to the frequent maintenance as the only shaping/maintenance work I see is before it opens to the public in the morning...... I also dont see many rails being pulled out of the ground....( I do though see lots of near misses as riders follow each other over jumps...).

But more seriously, I can quite understand how to the casual observer it may appear there is minimal maintenance performed on the race course and gates just magically stay in the ground and ruts disappear.,..( i wish!) Partially because the course is often not that visible and also because coaches and athletes do most of the work on skis, not standing about with a shovel or a rake (unless of course it is a race). so of course it is easy to think "why can't they just stick gates in the ground for the public to run?" But, if you don't believe me, go and stick a bundle of gates in the ground on an open run accessible to the public and see how many of them are still standing after 10 minutes.....

And i also know how, on a daily basis, some of the GP think it is perfectly OK to duck rope lines and ignore multiple closed signs to try to poach, or cross over, our training courses, ignoring the danger both to our athletes and themselves, so forgive me if i sound cynical.

I do agree though that it makes little sense to me that resorts spend money and close off runs for terrain parks at no added cost while charging race teams multiple $$$. Time to charge for the park the same as Nastar...

 

[Ivan]

Here are my two cents... First of all, let me say right away that @ScotsSkier and @Rudi Riet know a lot more about maintaining race courses, and I think they make many good points. But I think @wnyskier might have a point, too. Just a couple of observations on Europe vs USA (yes, I acknowledge that there are many differences between these regions, such as liability insurance rules, the average skier's skill level, etc.):

1. I remember that when we were skiing in Schladming on our very first trip to Europe (in 2004, I believe), there was a short fenced section with a speed radar at the bottom. Maybe about 300-400 feet long, I'd say. One would tuck and ski it straight top to bottom, and a large screen at the bottom would display the speed. I know, this is not real racing, but nevertheless this is something that is arguably a bit more "competitive" and "fun" than just regular skiing.

2. When my parents were on another trip to Austria (without me; I had moved to the US by that time), the ski area they skied at had a race course for general use. I believe it was free (but I'm not 100% sure), and I think there might have even been a camera that recorded the runs... It was clearly marked on the trail map and described on the resort website as well. I am pretty certain it was on a green/blue trail, but still.

And again, to be clear: I'm not saying that something like this can be done everywhere, or can be done easily. But there may be some examples, in particular in Europe, that might be worth looking at. Maybe it would be impossible to do anything similar in the US, or maybe it wouldn't...

 

[Nobody]

For those comparing the situation with Europe...wrt Italy specifically
All those kids you see running gates after school are not necessarily "wealthy" (but then, Compagnoni, 100% local, family is/was running an hotel in S. Caterina). But sure they are "local", and that's a huge advantage.
For a kid living in the flatlands or at least not close enough to a ski resort is almost impossible to reach the topmost spots. Unless wealthy ( think Tomba, he is from a reasonably well off family)
Even for kids living in my home village, only 37km away from the nearest ski area it is an almost impossible task. Some tried, but it meant to be able to train (run gates) 2-3 afternoons at best and then go out on a Sunday and compete against kids training every single afternoon after school ( and even then, maybe in their school PT program the subject is... skiing, which adds mileage) . The only way to stay on a par and have some hope to progress, is either be wealthy or relocate the entire family, or better, both.

 

[GB_Ski]

For the ski coaches, are there late bloomers in this sports that reached the top? As a few others have pointed out, NBA and NFL have hall of famers who are late to sports (in their late teens).

 

[Average Joe]

For the ski coaches, are there late bloomers in this sports that reached the top? As a few others have pointed out, NBA and NFL have hall of famers who are late to sports (in their late teens).

Very, very rare.
Dave Ryding comes to mind, beyond that, it's close to zero.

 

[Philpug]

In this country skiing is just not on the radar of our best athletes where it is the dominating countries like Norway, Austria and Germany.

 

[ScotsSkier]

Here are my two cents... First of all, let me say right away that @ScotsSkier and @Rudi Riet know a lot more about maintaining race courses, and I think they make many good points. But I think @wnyskier might have a point, too. Just a couple of observations on Europe vs USA (yes, I acknowledge that there are many differences between these regions, such as liability insurance rules, the average skier's skill level, etc.):

1. I remember that when we were skiing in Schladming on our very first trip to Europe (in 2004, I believe), there was a short fenced section with a speed radar at the bottom. Maybe about 300-400 feet long, I'd say. One would tuck and ski it straight top to bottom, and a large screen at the bottom would display the speed. I know, this is not real racing, but nevertheless this is something that is arguably a bit more "competitive" and "fun" than just regular skiing.

2. When my parents were on another trip to Austria (without me; I had moved to the US by that time), the ski area they skied at had a race course for general use. I believe it was free (but I'm not 100% sure), and I think there might have even been a camera that recorded the runs... It was clearly marked on the trail map and described on the resort website as well. I am pretty certain it was on a green/blue trail, but still.

And again, to be clear: I'm not saying that something like this can be done everywhere, or can be done easily. But there may be some examples, in particular in Europe, that might be worth looking at. Maybe it would be impossible to do anything similar in the US, or maybe it wouldn't...

Good points Ivan.

And, to be very clear, lest anyone think I am suggesting we shouldn't have greater access to race courses, nothing could be further from the truth. The point I am making is that it is not simply a "set it and forget it" type scenario. It takes a lot of manpower for supervision and constant maintenance and that comes down to whether the public will pay for it (a Nastar scenario) or whether it would be provided for free by the resort and what the return would be.

 

[Ivan]

Very, very rare.
Dave Ryding comes to mind, beyond that, it's close to zero.

I'd mention Khoroshilov as well. All 10 his World Cup podiums, as well as his only World Cup win, came after the age of 30, 10 years after his World Cup debut.

I think Ryding is notable not just because he is a late bloomer, but also because most of his training as a kid was on plastic, rather than snow.

 

[crgildart]

FWIW, back in ancient days the freestyle jumps were off limits to anyone not on the resort team and only used under close coaching supervision... Big most of us didn't wear helmets LOL

These days the larger ones typically come with a requirement of riders earning a "Park Pass" safety certification before allowed to hit the big jumps. The smaller and medium ones (and even some large ones depending on the resort) are a free for all.. which still kind of shocks me..

 

[Moose32]

>>Jeremy Bloom played starting quarterback for University of Colorado and crushed it on the FIS and Olympic Moguls..

Bloom was not a QB - at least not in college. He was largely a return specialist (KR/PR) at CU.

 

[hrstrat57]

Wachusett Mountain wacks you for $5 one time for a park pass. Unfortunately the park occupies the best terrain IMO on the hill.

 

[BLiP]

This may have already been said, but there is a lot of potential talent in the Midwest, i.e., Michigan, Minnesota, and Wisconsin. Many of these young racers are on snow seven days a week, three to four months a year because of their proximity to local hills. And the local clubs are not exorbitantly expensive. The problem is that these kids eventually need to get west or east to really progress. That takes considerable dedication and resources, i.e., the Kildows moving the entire family to Vail. The talent is there, it just a matter of taking it to the next level. I don’t have an answer for that part of the equation.

 

[Seldomski]

Would this help improve access?

Alpine-X wants to build indoor ski resorts in Texas

The company is reportedly aiming to open locations in Austin and Dallas.

www.kvue.com

Price point will of course matter, but bringing mountains into major population areas could improve the pipeline of athletes. Guess it also depends on how the interior is setup... if it's a terrain park in there and not gates, it won't do much for racing...

 

[newfydog]

Here is one of the most famous spots in ski racing, the train bridge over the Lauberhorn. The had some gates set right in the middle, with a sign inviting the public to try some turns, They were well anchored break away gates, and they were still there late in the day. No one was standing by to fix them, they still made it through the day. Just say'n.

 

[François Pugh]

I must have a less affluent background than a lot of posters here; what strikes me is that in this thread so far the two examples of exceptions to the rule of you need to be rich to make it into ski racing came from rich backgrounds: the "farm boy" had rich parents who owned land and were shrewd business folk (farmers), and Bode's parents were also rich (land owners with decent jobs/careers). It wasn't until I was 12 that my parents were able to swing a mortgage on their first home. I never joined a ski team either.
I could'a been a contender!

 

[hbear]

Looking from the outside it seems obvious that already rich kids are not going to be the most motivated when it comes to succeeding in a difficult sport with low rewards.

I am confused how the race programs can be so expensive, but the coaches pay also very low, where is the money going?

I wouldn't agree with that statement about "rich kids." When they have a passion for something, they have a passion. Wealth doesn't factor other than in the opportunity to pursue it.

 

[jimtransition]

I wouldn't agree with that statement about "rich kids." When they have a passion for something, they have a passion. Wealth doesn't factor other than in the opportunity to pursue it.

What about the ones that don't have enough passion to stick with it? It's a lot easier to give up when you have wealth to fall back on.

 

[skiracerx]

Tim Duncan didn't start playing basketball until 9th grade. He was on track to become an Olympic swimmer when a hurricane knocked out his only training facility on the island. Instead of quitting athletics completely, he moved to basketball, and the rest is history.

Does anything like that ever happen for skiing - in any country? Is it really impossible to be an athlete in some other sport, then transition to skiing at a later age when it becomes convenient or obvious that you have a natural knack for it over whatever sport you were pursuing, or unable to compete at a high level in what you were doing? Maybe unlikely in US given the $$ factor with other sports. But does this happen in other countries where skiing professionally is more lucrative/possible?

Hermann Maier was a late bloomer in ski racing. He was asked to leave his ski academy at 15 because he did not have potential but kept racing and was eventually skiing on the World Cup at 23.

 

[Philpug]

Wealth doesn't factor other than in the opportunity to pursue it.

 

[CDR114]

Our race program for 17 and under at our Ohio ski resort is free for two nights of practice per week. Our race schedule (which is a NASTAR club event) is 6 GS and 4 SL races and costs $40 for the year. Our coaches are volunteers that get a free season ski pass and locker. The ski area views the program as an investment for the future. Keep it simple and fun and hopefully the kids will ski at the area when they become adults. We now have some 3rd generation kids in our program. Our program has produced some good ski racers and many good skiers, including one who won the Central US FIS season series championship over a future US ski team member. (he never could obtain the FIS points profile required to attract US Ski & Snowboard's attention, though he did well at the USCSA level) The program makes it money for gates and equipment by hosting some adult race club events. The kids that want more coaching receive more attention, but most of the kids just want to have fun running gates and being with their friends and we try to keep it that way.

The reason I bring up this model is that there is no reason why most ski areas can't have a similar program. This program can co-exist with the expensive race programs and grow the skiing population amoung the younger generation. The advantage is that a kid in this type of program can develop naturally, have fun at a low cost, and as he/she matures, if the talent is there, he/she could ultimately excel if the evaluation scenario would change. The bigger issue is that US Ski and Snowboard is more interested in FIS points profile versus scouting talent and then developing that talent.

As a US Ski & Snowboard Technical Delegate and race coach, I have seen lots of racers over the years, including a young Lindsey Kildow (Vonn) and several other future US ski team members. Not taking anything away from those individuals (except for Lindsey who totally dominated) there were other youth racers that had equivalent of better raw talent. But maybe the physical growth from a strength standpoint wasn't there yet, or the mental maturity wasn't ready at that specific age that held them back from the FIS points profile necessary to advance. But the US system only rewards for FIS points and podiums. It doesn't scout for raw talent. This is the ultimate source of the runaway costs for junior racing. Parents only see that going to high price academies and race clubs will give the best opportunity for their child to have the FIS point profile at a certain age necessary to get attention. Thus over the years, that pool of potential racers has been more and more limited to the wealthy or parents that sacrifice everything for an extremely rare opportunity for their child to make the US Ski Team or college scholarship. It is the runaway cost of chasing point profiles that has produced the current situation. Change the current evaluation method from a pyramid to a rectangle with a pointed top, with evaluations performed at the top of the rectangle (probably at age 17-19 with actual US Ski & Snowboard scouts physically going to FIS races and observing all the 17+ age racers for specific skills and traits and not necessarily results (unless you have the rare phenom as Vonn and Shiffrin were/are). Do you want to develop the racer that has superior speed but crashes out a lot because of bad tactics or technical flaws that could be corrected through advanced coaching or the racer that's slower and wins? Prior to 17 you are often just observing maturity differences in junior racers rather than ultimate talent.

In summary, have lower or no cost programs that allow kids to race and have fun while developing skills, friendships and maturing physically and mentally. Change the evaluation method so parents don't have to spend large sums of money for racing and equipment prior to age 15. Money would be better spent on developing technical skiing and basic athletic skills. Racing at the younger ages should be for fun and low key and relatively local. Keep the results local and no submital of results on a national/regional basis (all non-pointed races). If a parent can afford more advanced coaching at age 15-16 great, but race results still don't mean much at that age. Developing technical skills and the inherent talent for speed are more meaningful. Finally at age 17+ evaluate for talent and speed not FIS points. Granted phenoms are the exception! In the end, there are only a few spots on the US Ski Team that will be taken with athletically better skiers, and hopefully there will be more young adults that enjoy skiing and not burnt out on the sport.