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Individual Review Augment Skis -- Buyer Beware

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Nancy Hummel

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Mike had a poor experience, and all of us in the entire industry are schmucks. There is NO reward system for acting in bad faith. I've always posted to be helpful and provide correct, useful information, add value, etc.. but I'm done. This place has become a misery pit rather than a place to constructively seek solutions, and specific to this thread, help Mike.

I always appreciate your thoughtful comments and constructive opinions. Mike posted about a specific issue and was not bashing the entire industry.

With regard to Mike's issue, if Augment has never had this happen with its skis, then replacing one pair should not be a big deal.

I always ski my new skis out of the box before I have them tuned to see how I like them.

Developing relationships with people and shops you trust, sending customers to shops which do a good job and posting positive feedback for shops that do a good job are the things I try to do.

Voting with your dollars can make an impact. Look at the whole backcountry.com backlash.
 

fatbob

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Don't you see that there is a difference between the good guys and the sloppy/indifferent ones?

It's not helpful when the good guys take any criticism of the sector as a personal slight and it certainly won't make things better across the board for all skiers. Maybe it should just be left as a dirty little secret, not spoken about and those that have bad experiences never take their business anywhere and ultimately leave the sport as it appears some would like.

It certainly doesn't feel like there is anyway to "constructively seek solutions" with the amount of butthurt that occurs everytime the topic comes up. We all get that shit happens and no one turns out 100% perfect work but why do so many of us have to have stories of less than great/being negged etc? And I say this from equally a non US perspective - I've had bad experiences in Canada and various places in Europe.
 
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dovski

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Bad customer service is bad customer service, and it should be called out ... like we do with Vail all the time ;) Mike it sounds like this was not a good experience and Augment did not handle it well, I am sorry you had to deal with this. Agree with others though generalizing and bashing ski shops as a whole is not fair or accurate. Make informed decisions about where you shop and vote with your wallet to reward the shops that give you good service.

For example I always buy my boots and my families boots at Sturtevants in Bellevue. Could I buy the boot itself online for cheaper? ... sometimes yes, sometimes no, but that is not what I am actually paying for. They have the best boot fitters in Washington state some of whom have had the same customer for over 30 years, because they are that good. When I buy a boot from them I am also buying their boot fitting service which is second to none. I have weird feet and they always go above and beyond to make my boots fit perfectly. More importantly sometimes mistakes happen or things do not work out as planned .. no ill intent ... they always go the extra mile to make things right. And they do not just do this for me, they do it for every customer who comes in. I have no hesitation sending my friends there as they always have a great experience. Now there is another shop that I will not be named and they sold a friend of mine a boot and footbeds, but it never fit correctly. Convinced him to go into Sturtevants and they called out two things right away, 1) your footbeds are in the wrong boots left and right got reversed by the shop 2) these are the wrong footbeds for your feet. Simply put there are a lot of stores that sell ski gear but there are also specialized ski shops that only sell ski gear. This makes a big difference.

I wanted to call this out because this conversation kind of shifted away from the original issue and turned into store bashing and that is not right. There are some great shops out there and as consumers we need to do our research and vote with our wallets. If great ski shops like Sturtevants get our business they can continue to invest in hiring great staff who deliver great customer experiences.
 

James

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Lol. This is a joke. Who’s bashing shops? If I was bashing shops, you’d know it. I’m not. Will visit a shop today. Even the one who’s main guy couldn’t be bothered to put down his phone while I was at the counter. That did save me money on an impulse purchase I was about to make though.
It certainly doesn't feel like there is anyway to "constructively seek solutions" with the amount of butthurt that occurs everytime the topic comes up.
Yep. Goodness. Relax. I’m going skiing.
Maybe you should give kudos for the 2 good grinds. Or were those from the same shop as the bad ones?
Ha, yes same shop. I spent most of my budget at that shop too. I’m fine with the shop, I like it.
The only shop I could recommend without reservation for grinds left the business a few years ago. If that makes some people outraged, fine.

It should get attention from the industry who now sell $300k + machines and I guess convince owners it’ll solve all their problems. They don’t. Things may be worse from the days that maybe 1 or 2 shops in VT had those machines.
 
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pchewn

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Maybe the "end of the season" blues is causing all the strife in this thread? I'm glad the season here still has about a month left in it. I'll be grumpy around May 25th.....
 

Tony S

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Even the one who’s main guy couldn’t be bothered to put down his phone while I was at the counter.

<drift>
LOL
The issue of plain old human personality inevitably plays a part in these kinds of discussions. I'm guessing that ski shop employees generally do not get hours of focused training on how to deal with customers the way that, say, a call center manager for LL Bean might.

In the '80s, when I was in my twenties, I worked in the wine department of a big urban liquor store. Part of the gig was ushering customers through the checkout line to make sure they got the right discounts on the right bottles or cases. (Often the sale involved some exception handling with regard to pricing, for one reason or another.) There was no expectation that I would also help the customer load his or her car. However, I would OFTEN go out into the parking lot with the customer with the specific objective of apologizing for the behavior of the store manager, who supervised the checkout line and had a habit of being subtly - or not so subtly - rude to both the wine department staff and to the wine customers. You'd think he would have known which side of of the bread had the butter on it, but no. He was a working class guy who just saw the whole wine thing as a performance whose purpose was to rub his nose in his own socio-economic plight. So he would give us a hard time by obnoxiously asserting his authority in misplaced ways at inopportune times. So I had to explain to the customers that, you know, he'd gotten up on the wrong side of bed that morning or something. The interesting thing was that, in general, the rest of the staff saw things his way, even though the wine department manager was a super nice low-key guy who wouldn't look down his nose at anyone for any reason. Human behavior is inscrutable.
</drift>
 

ScottB

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I related an experience of a bad tune from a shop in my post. It could be labeled shop bashing. I would put it in the category of offering evidence from personal experiences to support a point. I don't want to argue it either way as its not the point I am trying to make now.

My point is the shop I supposedly bashed (nobody here is accusing me specifically of that, there was just a "blanket statement" made about this thread) is a good shop and I still give them a lot of my business. I just don't use them for ski tuning. I am with SkiOtter and James on this subject.
I view ski tuning as a specialized service that a lot of ski shops offer. Its not what makes or breaks a ski shop in my book. The quality of the ski tuning service is a separate category in mind, and it can vary like everything else. I am very educated and fussy on the subject. I do a lot of my own tuning, as a lot of posters here do, and when I need a base grind done by a shop, I go to a place that is very good at it. Not all ski shops are, just a fact of life and it doesn't mean a shop that is not good at base grinds is a bad ski shop. As a matter of fact, I don't go to a ski shop for grinds, I go to a dedicated ski tuner who specializes in that service, SKIMD. I happen to be lucky enough to live near his business, but he does mail order business as well. Hopefully we all can find someone good at that service in our area.

When it comes to buying new skis, if they need a grind to correct a tune issue, I just pay for it myself (or do it myself if possible) and chalk it up to its a good ski with a bad tune, shit happens. In Mikes case, my read is that he was delivered a new ski with a tune issue, tried to correct it himself and took it to a shop with poor tune service, and after some "poor" interaction with the sales rep, the rep finally got it to a shop with "good" tune service and hopefully the ski's tune is fixed. The rep sure made an unfortunate situation worse and didn't know when to keep his mouth shut, although in the end a lot of what he said (not all of it, like the ski not being railed) I suspect was true. The broken promises, timing, and hind sight of what he said was sure offensive, don't get me wrong about that.

One last point, I am not sure if Augment Ski Co. shares in the blame for Mike's issue. It sounds like its all on the rep. he is dealing with. If anything maybe Phil/Tricia can make use of their contacts to make Augment Ski Co aware of an unhappy customer interaction with a particular rep. in Augment's business circle. It makes me think of the defunct Ski Logik Co. I own a couple of their skis and they had factory tune issues in general across their line up. Ski Logik acknowledged it and tried to correct it. I had some "not great" dealings with their US rep's early on and I speculate on whether that contributed to their demise??
 
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ski otter 2

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What kills me about the whole situation is that in our time of social media, you would think that any rep would know better than cross-up a single customer at the risk of literally thousands of product sales. :nono:
One might think that the massive communication of social media might lead to sorting out the true state of affairs in many areas, many ways, but then....... it actually often seems to lead to..... what? Alternate realities? Dunno.
 

James

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“Social media” has also lead to a glut of worthless reviews and 5 star ratings. If humans were rated, a dead body would get at least two stars on Amazon. “Great hair!” “Nice smile!” “Elegantly dressed!”
 

justaute

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“Social media” has also lead to a glut of worthless reviews and 5 star ratings. If humans were rated, a dead body would get at least two stars on Amazon. “Great hair!” “Nice smile!” “Elegantly dressed!”

And someone would make a comment to the body such as "why are you so stiff?" :)
 

AngryAnalyst

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One last point, I am not sure if Augment Ski Co. shares in the blame for Mike's issue. It sounds like its all on the rep. he is dealing with. If anything maybe Phil/Tricia can make use of their contacts to make Augment Ski Co aware of an unhappy customer interaction with a particular rep. in Augment's business circle.

I could be wrong about this, but I thought the person Mike interacted with is essentially an independent intermediary who has made a deal to sell Augment skis. That person gets 70% of the blame here, but given I don’t know how or if I can buy skis from Augment without interacting with Mike’s guy or Dakine’s guy (perhaps same guy?) I still don’t want to buy Augment skis.

I do think Augment Ski Co the brand gets a bit of residual fault for letting their product be mismanaged in the US. That said, we are a small market for ski goods.
 

motogreg

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Contrast this with the Nordica thread from back in february wherein Nordica replaced a pair of skis that may or may not have been a warrantee issue, which company do you think will end up losing more money? I'm not one who believes the "customer is always right" tripe, buuuut, in the modern world, companies should TREAT them as if they are. But that's just, like, my opinion, man.
 

scott43

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Based on past experience...I would say that maybe 5%..perhaps 10%..of people in sports can determine nuance in gear. A lot of it is mental and marketing. So 90% of the time, they're dealing with people who don't have a clue. Having said that, if you end up talking to someone who is in the 5-10% range, you'd better recognize it and deal straight with them. It will eventually erode confidence in your product when knowledgeable people aren't treated well.
 

Coolhand

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It occurs to me that we have only heard one side of the story. He's become "Judge, Jury, and Executioner". Now many here have deemed Augment as radioactive, based on one guy with a "burr under his saddle". Not saying that the OP's complaints aren't legitimate, but without knowing the whole story it's far too early to make any definitive judgements regarding this situation. Or more importantly, about Augment skis in general. Or ski shops, or ski tuners, or the ski industry.
 

François Pugh

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Well it depends on what we know or can deduce about the one guy.

Me, I would not buying an Augment ski, unless I could be assured I would not have to deal with the clowns who dealt with OP. There are too many other very good skis on the market. Heck even my 4FRNTs bought off the internet with no ski shop to advocate for me have a money-back satisfaction guarantee. (I'm very satisfied BTW)

Ski shops, well I'm basing my opinion on not just this one incident, which had nothing to do with a ski shop, and not just on the related stories about ski shops; I base my opinion regarding ski shops from the sum total of my experience. There are some excellent ski shops, some so-so, and some I'm very leary of. It seems to be the 70% that ruin it for the rest of the shops.

The industry? I have no opinion as of yet; too little experience dealing with it.
 
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ski otter 2

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Problems tuning with many shops is not the same as problems on that score with all shops, including the relatively few ones really good at tuning (or specialty tuning shops, for some), as the @ScottB post above makes clear, better than I can.

I suspect I'll still be interested in Augment skis. I'd just exercise a bit of extra caution, and probably talk out what will happen if and when I order. I'd explicitly mention, when appropriate, the problems with supply and follow through, and warranty, that have happened or seem to have happened to folks in this online skiing community. And I'd see how they respond, how the interaction goes. These Augment folks make some wonderful skis - some that don't fit me, but some that sure do.

The denial and failure to back up a ski product around tuning issues for a new ski, and to back up promises made, that was at the heart of this thread. Also involved were competing opinions - and results - in tuning shops, around what was actually the problem. It reminded a lot of us of these general tuning & denial patterns with many brands, in many ski shops - but not all, and not always the same ones. Stuff happens. It's significant that the problem of getting good tunes for new skis is so widespread also, for people who actually notice, with so many of the ski shops around, seemingly - not solved by the advent of the monster tuning machines.

(It's still more the operator, even when the machine saves time and makes more possible. Just from hard, real experience. )

That is not the same thing as some kind of generalized or inappropriate ski shop bashing. The leap there is .... unnecessary.

I just won't hide my head in the sand about what I've experienced and learned the hard way, because that would short-circuit my goal: many successful ski days with good equipment, no problem, good solutions.

I mentioned a half dozen shops I know that do good "from the factory" corrective tunes, or that I've heard do such tunes from folks I trust (including some brand reps). I've found these the hard way over the years. Fact is, I know of around three dozen shops or so that are the other way, places to mostly avoid at least on this one score, no problem. Just how it is. (I didn't post that to begin with, best given the reaction so far, but that side is just as real, and reason for caution. To me it's understandable.) Many of these "problem" shops I'd trust in other, just as important ways, as I posted. And it's the same with many of the ski reps I've talked with about what they do for their demo fleet tunes - lots of learning the hard way. They find routines that work, or suffer consequences in demo feedback and sales, probably.

It's not personal, not a big deal for me. We're all into skiing, on our way to being more human, if possible. Doing the best we can, more or less. I figure it's fairly difficult to fine tune "from the factory" & other skis, lots of focused effort - especially in large volume.
Man, sort of hard to do even a few dozen skis, as I get older.
 
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fatbob

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It occurs to me that we have only heard one side of the story. He's become "Judge, Jury, and Executioner". Now many here have deemed Augment as radioactive, based on one guy with a "burr under his saddle". Not saying that the OP's complaints aren't legitimate, but without knowing the whole story it's far too early to make any definitive judgements regarding this situation. Or more importantly, about Augment skis in general. Or ski shops, or ski tuners, or the ski industry.

Mike has credibility here as a non BSer. Augment Skis has an account and is happy to post pimping their skis but have been surprisingly silent on this matter. I hope they are PMing Mike behind the scenes making it rightish. Then it would be good to know the steps they are taking to ensure customers get skis prepped right every time and it need no longer be an issue.

Seems pretty simple.
 

Muleski

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I believe that I have some vague understanding of how Augment is going about selling and "the distribution" of their skis in the USA. I'd like to confirm that. I have the impression that many here do NOT grasp that it's very different from any of the more established brands. It's new, small, and it seems like it's all variable cost based on the sales.

To the comment that "we are a small market for ski goods," who is "We?" If it's the United States, well....we are about 50% of the total global market. Not so small. In fact, the biggest market.

I recall, vaguely, that the PugSki community learned of Augment making a deal to get their skis into the USA, as posted by Phil. Please correct me, but as I recall it {and I'm not searching the site} a friend of Phil's, a long time independent manufacturer's rep in the business, was able to make a deal to essentially sell Augment in the U.S. I have no idea if it extends to Canada.

Back a few decades ago almost every ski company brought their product to the skier through ski shops, and they brought it to the shops through "reps" who were independent operators, paid on the sales volume, who "sold"their value to the ski companies based on results that they had delivered through their dealer relationships. Often they repped a number of different lines, though only one in each niche. I have two friends who had a ski company, a binding company, a boot line, a pole line, a clothing manufacturer, a sweater company, a ski rack company, a helmet line, goggles and sunglasses, gloves. And more.

Then things began to shift, as the ski companies changed. We saw a lot of consolidation and the "rep" actually became an employee a sales/service function with geographic territories for many, then later most companies. Could be a couple of states, regions, the entire country. But not independents paid a commission based on sales. They still call themselves reps, and the whole bullshit about "area reps" who tend to be ambassadors, or local "reps" who add some goodwill and such {often in return for free equipment and such} is confusing.

I would like to know what Augment is doing. I have had some interaction with the company since they started. Many European coach friends have TOP level skiers on the skis. When CROC first appeared, they methodically provided great race skis to certain age groups in a few countries {like Finland} and as those kids aged into the Europa Cup level, they continued on the skis. The designers and people who run the company are very, very, good. A lot of Nordica pedigree. There is NO question that the skis that that crowd is racing on are phenomenal.

For a number of years, a few of the best coaches in the country, who spend a lot of time in Europe have discussed, with CROC/Augment, bringing some race skis to this country to get under the feet of some of our best. But I think the decision was that the company did NOT have the ability to properly staff a North American race service function. To warehouse a supply of race skis, to be able to replace damaged race skis at a moment's notice. And, those deep in the race game know that even the very best skis have a limited life span. So having a small group of fully supported, fully comp'd racers probably was not a wise investment....yet.

Contrast with with selling both race skis and all mountain skis at pretty damn high price points, with what sounds like no real fixed investment. I might be wrong, but I would like to know more about "Lifelong Sports, LLC", which I believe functions as Augment USA, in addition to repping lines like Exel poles, a roller ski brand, a glove line. I don't know. I assume that Augment Skis on here is Lifelong Sports, LLC, and he guy with whom Phil is acquainted. I may be jumping to the wrong conclusion.

I see a few people popping up on Linkedin who are now "repping" the skis in various parts of the country, and they seem to fit the same mold. Sell sneakers, sunglasses, gloves....whatever they can to sport/ski retailers. I would imagine that they are dependent on getting dealers to sell the skis.....and that is probably a tough balancing act. How many can you bring on? "Great guys, with GREAT relationships and years of GREAT experience." Yep.

I'd also like to know how many skis Augment is manufacturing these days. A couple of years ago I believe that it was approaching 5000, which is a SMALL number. For example, about 25 years ago, as Stockli started to ramp up USA sales, one of the biggest issues was getting enough product into this country. As I recall around 2002-2003, the total number brought to the USA was around 4000. If a dealer did not order and buy skis in their first early fall order, small chance of getting anything later on. And....some warranty challenges. It was a real issue. I have a friend who was seriously interested in buying Stockli USA, but after two flights to Switzerland when it was clear that inventory was going to be a real issue, he ended the conversations back here in the USA. I wonder how many pairs of Stockli's are sold here, and worldwide these days. Anybody know off the top of their head?

I do know that Augment makes very, very good skis. No question. I assume that they are ALL good, and that they are not dumping less than the best to the biggest market in the world. But I also really have questions about the "operation" and would like to know more. And I would assume that the skis went to Mike should have been "caught" and either properly ground/tuned or set aside so that another pair could be sent. Perhaps there was no "other pair?"

One guy that I know who has been mentioned as a dealer has told a mutual friend that he would "like" to be selling the skis this coming season, if he can get a decent supply. Or much of any supply. He has been very impressed with the skis.

A far as the issues that lead to this thread......it happens. One of my adult kids used to work for Head in the summer, in NZ and Switzerland, testing and prepping skis for a few WC skiers. Including a pretty well known recently retired American. There is no such thing as a factory tune. Yes, normally a small factory would prep skis on their machines much like a bigger factory "race room", but most need some work for a skilled skier. In the container of skis shipped for this skier, there were a few that needed a lot of work.....and as such were not skied, and put back in the container.

Certainly some knowledgable skiers feel that the Augment skis that they have seen....out of the box...are best in class.

What I question re: Augment is the communication, followup, etc. I have some interest in the skis. I know that our @ScotsSkier, who is very, very knowledgable and has had access to a multitude of lightly used real-world WC level race skis in the past, feels that the Augment skis are absolute best in class and values his relationship as an ambassador for them in the Master's ranks. That counts with me.

My questions.....who and what is behind the curtain? If one of us buys a ski, directly from Lifelong Sports, LLC, perhaps we need to have a LOT of work done to it at a local tuning specialty shop. Or perhaps....very, very little. Almost none. I'd be OK with that. Every ski that made its way into my family for at last a decade was set up by one of two guys in New England. And worth it. THAT part does not bother me.

My concern would be what happens if the tail on one delaminates.....or some other rare and odd failure takes place. Do they even have the replacement skis on hand? Do they have a real warehouse? Years ago when I was out of college, one of my roommates was a rep for a well known race ski company with a small US footprint....some top skiers and USST skiers. He was the "USA Race Director." He was also the same for a ski pole company, BTW. The "warehouse" was one of our garage stalls, and a quarter of our basement. When he needed a customer service voice on the phone, it was his girlfriend, who was in law school at the time....great voice, very articulate and coachable.

Yep, that was ALL of "XXXXX, USA."

I'd like to know some details and facts. Don't want to jump to any conclusions, at all. Not easy bringing a new product to a huge geographic market. And much more challenging in these COVID times. Also challenging when a lot of what you have is race product.

However, I do really have no doubts about the product quality.

And this absolutely should not devolve into bashing the world of ski shops, dealers, tuners, etc. I don't think that's the point of the OP's post. BUT, it does illuminate that they are not all the same at all.....and that having the very best technology and machinery is NOT a guarantee of a great need result...a perfect tune.

Hope it works out for Mike. Anybody able to comment on Augment, USA?
 
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DocGKR

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Interesting reading.....and at odds with a recent experience I had with Augment.

I ordered AM98's based on some posts here. Unfortunately the skis ended up with a binding mount location issue--partly a QC issue at the factory in Austria, some on the location guess/estimate made by the shop that mounted them, and a layer of blame on me for rushing and wanting to get skiing on them before waiting for mount point verification.

Bottom line--Augment USA did right and sent out a new pair of skis. I even offered to pay for the new pair and they would NOT take my money.

As a result, I will be purchasing more Augment skis--likely a lot more.

FWIW--the AM98's had the best tune I have ever seen on a pair of skis direct from the factory. Far better then some other recent custom and high end skis I have acquired that also have a 4 digit retail price.....
 
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