Avalanche Fatality - Berthoud Pass should become a ski area again

[tball]

A good reminder that in addition to mitigation, another huge safety benefit of skiing avalanche-prone terrain in a ski area is more effective rescue. Having ski patrol and a dog at the top of the hill dramatically increases the odds of an effective rescue.

In the case of Berthoud, it would also make for more effective search and rescue in the surrounding backcountry, as ski patrol would also respond to avalanches outside the ski area boundary.

Riding the lift in Copper Bowl the other day, we saw a dog practicing finding a buried patroller. That was one super happy dog after finding the patroller. So cool to see and hear how excited the dog was. It got my son thinking he wants to be a patroller and take his dog to work every day. Then he asked Google how much ski patrollers make.

 

[tomahawkins]

I cant stress enough how hard is to do avy rescue and how much practice and fitness is required to be really good at it.

I hear so many times on the lift how someone has just finished their first avalanche class and they are now ready to take on Hemispheres and the Shuksan Arm. I don't think any understand what it takes to climb up through a debris field, locate one or more missing group members, and dig them out in time. Just watching how they handle themselves on skis, I just know any rescue they would have to initiate is not going to be successful.

So how many of these novices are flocking to Berthoud on any given weekend? Forget about lifts. How much would a ticket need to cost to pay a team of partrolers to safely control the area?

 

[tball]

I was just thinking that even if someone managed to go through the process and a ski area is made you would need a small army to prevent hoards of people from poaching the snow there.

Pondering this, I think the ski area should fully embrace uphill with the most liberal policy. Let them poach!

A freemium model for a ski area suits Berthoud Pass well. Once a skier gets a taste of the incredible terrain and snow, there's a good chance they will buy a ticket or pass to do laps.

It will also help to appease the current users of Berthoud Pass. They can continue to use the pass as they currently do, with the added safety of mitigation and patrol. Make uphill free, or $49, with all proceeds going to Grand County Search and Rescue.

Taking it further, the ski area could sell a significantly discounted pass product that's good for a single lift ride for those venturing out the backcountry gates.

 

[Ken_R]

Pondering this, I think the ski area should fully embrace uphill with the most liberal policy. Let them poach!

A freemium model for a ski area suits Berthoud Pass well. Once a skier gets a taste of the incredible terrain and snow, there's a good chance they will buy a ticket or pass to do laps.

It will also help to appease the current users of Berthoud Pass. They can continue to use the pass as they currently do, with the added safety of mitigation and patrol. Make uphill free, or $49, with all proceeds going to Grand County Search and Rescue.

Taking it further, the ski area could sell a significantly discounted pass product that's good for a single lift ride for those venturing out the backcountry gates.

Next step in making 600 parking spots, at least.

 

[François Pugh]

I hear so many times on the lift how someone has just finished their first avalanche class and they are now ready to take on Hemispheres and the Shuksan Arm. I don't think any understand what it takes to climb up through a debris field, locate one or more missing group members, and dig them out in time. Just watching how they handle themselves on skis, I just know any rescue they would have to initiate is not going to be successful.

So how many of these novices are flocking to Berthoud on any given weekend? Forget about lifts. How much would a ticket need to cost to pay a team of partrolers to safely control the area?

Having climbed up a couple hundred feet at Tremblant to get my ski back from the mogul it was stuck in, and having spent a couple of hours finding a ski in deep snow at Mt. Washington BC, I can say it is exhausting work, even for an in shape 27 year old. Heck, just walking through waist deep snow is exhausting. It is easier side-stepping up on skis though, still work.

 

[James]

Make uphill free, or $49, with all proceeds going to Grand County Search and Rescue.

So, where’s the money for the ski area mitigation and patrol coming from? It’s not like you can “mitigate” once a week, then disappear.

 

[jmeb]

There's no precedent in CO for making patrol also be SAR for terrain outside of its permitted area. Yes, some patrols respond to nearby areas on a purely voluntary basis. You're now expecting a lot from patrollers....be patrollers, be trained in avalanche mitigation (less than 1/2 patrollers at the vast majority of mtns), and also be trained as SAR (overlapping but not equivalent skill sets.) And the insurance costs, if you require a patrol to respond outside their boundaries, are not going to be insignificant.

So to @tomahawkins questions re:size and costs these question are unanswerable without a clear indication of what this envisioned area is...it depends entirely on how you operate it (lifts? how many? no lifts?), where the operational area is (does it include the very popular current creek zone? second creek? first creek? no name peak? all of which have a great deal of traffic and avalanche terrain), what publicly owned facilities you get exclusive use of (does this ski area get to only allow their customers access to the parking lots the FS has maintained for 20+ years? can you make money w/o a huge expansion of the current ~120 parking spaces across the multiple zones of the pass?) and a thousand other questions. But it's not going to be cheap, and it is in no way clear to me that there is any sensible business plan that delivers low-cost, avalanche-mitigated skiing with patrol services across the huge breadth of Berthoud pass terrain.

If there's someone here who has ski area operations with large mitigation program and ski business planning experience that begs to differ -- I'm genuinely all ears. From what I've seen in this thread the folks I know that come closest (like @pais alto) seem doubtful.

I freakin' love the Euro model of skiing (lifts, a few avy mitigated runs, otherwise ski at your own risk) -- but there are a myraid of reasons it hasn't come to the US shores. The closest is silverton but it runs on a pretty different model, is $200+ lift tickets, and utilizes a bunch of private land. Maybe Berthoud is the first in the US. But I doubt it.

 

[tball]

Next step in making 600 parking spots, at least.

Yes, parking is a huge challenge—also a potential opportunity, not just for the ski area but also for Clear Creek County.

The parking solution very much depends on the scale of the ski area. Like the sewer and water systems, it's just a matter of money and what you can get approved.

I'm unsure of the right answer, but our Co-founder and CEO might have some ideas.

Here are a couple of my thoughts about parking:

1. Pave Current Creek paradise to add parking spots and a second little base area with bathrooms and a food truck. It was always such a cool spot and vibe waiting for the shuttle, with everyone stoked after a fantastic run. The protection of the trees and gully allows eating and relaxing outside, which is rarely possible on the summit. I'd probably like to see a lift down there, but shuttles make for a longer lap and less tracking up.

2. Work with Clear Creek County and CDOT to build a transportation center and run shuttles from the bottom of the east side of the pass, maybe somewhere around Berthoud Falls. To improve the current traffic nightmare on Berthoud Pass at peak times, make the passing lanes HOV 3+ and changing directions. Run free buses to both Berthoud Pass Ski Area and Winter Park.

Clear Creek county could help fund the building of a small-scale ski village around Berthoud Falls. A couple of hotels, restaurants, a coffee shop, a brewery, gas, and lots of free parking for both Berthoud Pass and Winter Park. Make it more convenient and faster to get to both ski areas on the busses by utilizing the HOV lanes and close-in drop-off.

The Berthoud Pass Ski area could have a high-end hotel down there as part of a premium snowcat experience (CMH) and the summer wedding factory.

I know it sounds crazy now, but I think something like this is likely in the coming decades.

 

[tball]

There's no precedent in CO for making patrol also be SAR for terrain outside of its permitted area. Yes, some patrols respond to nearby areas on a purely voluntary basis. You're now expecting a lot from patrollers....be patrollers, be trained in avalanche mitigation (less than 1/2 patrollers at the vast majority of mtns), and also be trained as SAR (overlapping but not equivalent skill sets.) And the insurance costs, if you require a patrol to respond outside their boundaries, are not going to be insignificant.

Yes, it would need to be voluntary, like at the existing ski areas.

 

[pais alto]

Are there places where volunteer patrollers oversee, much less do, avy mitigation?

I’m curious about insurance/worker’s comp costs as well.

 

[SBrown]

Yes, it would need to be voluntary, like at the existing ski areas.

What?

 

[jmeb]

Are there places where volunteer patrollers oversee, much less do, avy mitigation?

I’m curious about insurance/worker’s comp costs as well.

I'd be shocked if there were. There aren't *that* many places left with large volunteer patrol groups with large amounts of avalanche terrain. I volunteer atrol at one of them.

The closest thing volunteers do to mitigation is z-cutting new storm snow and side stomping areas early season -- all after they have been mitigated by snow safety team. No volunteers touch explosives or ski cut anything where a result is likely.

What?

I think he meant that acting as voluntary SAR outside the ski area boundaries.

 

[Jack skis]

Yes, parking is a huge challenge—also a potential opportunity, not just for the ski area but also for Clear Creek County.

The parking solution very much depends on the scale of the ski area. Like the sewer and water systems, it's just a matter of money and what you can get approved.

I'm unsure of the right answer, but our Co-founder and CEO might have some ideas.

Here are a couple of my thoughts about parking:

1. Pave Current Creek paradise to add parking spots and a second little base area with bathrooms and a food truck. It was always such a cool spot and vibe waiting for the shuttle, with everyone stoked after a fantastic run. The protection of the trees and gully allows eating and relaxing outside, which is rarely possible on the summit. I'd probably like to see a lift down there, but shuttles make for a longer lap and less tracking up.

2. Work with Clear Creek County and CDOT to build a transportation center and run shuttles from the bottom of the east side of the pass, maybe somewhere around Berthoud Falls. To improve the current traffic nightmare on Berthoud Pass at peak times, make the passing lanes HOV 3+ and changing directions. Run free buses to both Berthoud Pass Ski Area and Winter Park.

Clear Creek county could help fund the building of a small-scale ski village around Berthoud Falls. A couple of hotels, restaurants, a coffee shop, a brewery, gas, and lots of free parking for both Berthoud Pass and Winter Park. Make it more convenient and faster to get to both ski areas on the busses by utilizing the HOV lanes and close-in drop-off.

The Berthoud Pass Ski area could have a high-end hotel down there as part of a premium snowcat experience (CMH) and the summer wedding factory.

I know it sounds crazy now, but I think something like this is likely in the coming decades.

Holy cow. And you didn't mention high quality employee housing, on site. Plus child care and medical facilities etc. etc..

 

[SassyRat]

Holy cow. And you didn't mention high quality employee housing, on site. Plus child care and medical facilities etc. etc..

Not to mention the infrastructure, funding for initial building and maintenance, personnel, which is why so many smaller ski areas went under in the first place.

 

[tball]

Isn't it OK to think big anymore? If it weren't for big thinkers half a century ago, we wouldn't have the amazing ski areas we all love!

Holy cow. And you didn't mention high quality employee housing, on site. Plus child care and medical facilities etc. etc..

Being based in Clear Creek County makes these challenges far easier to manage than anywhere else you could build a new ski area.

The cost of housing is relatively reasonable, with home prices below the Denver Metro Area, and there are still large chunks of developable land. St. Anthony's Hospital in Lakewood is a little more than half an hour down the hill. Being so close to the metro area allows access to lower costs for employees, contractors, and everything else needed to build and run a ski area.

Importantly, Clear Creek is tired of being a drive-thru county and needs economic development. I'd expect the county would be fully supportive and provide incentives for development, whereas other counties would fight the building of a new ski area tooth and nail.

 

[SBrown]

https://www.fs.usda.gov/Internet/FSE_DOCUMENTS/fsm91_058033.pdf

I don't remember if anyone linked this yet, but it has been referred to.

The report says that in 1989-90, comfortable capacity at Berthoud was 400 skiers/day, with the possibility of adding 100 more. I am not seeing child care and weddings and a modern first-aid clinic in this scenario. I think the Silverton model is the only possibility, but the financials of Silverton are a closely guarded secret. They still charge $99/day for unguided -- and that is a very very few number of days, it's usually $229. Because you have to, you know, pay for bombs and mechanics and stuff.

 

[SBrown]

Also just dropped today from CAIC: "Since the winter 2009 - 2010 almost 16% of fatal avalanche accidents in Colorado occurred when people left a ski area to recreate in the backcountry."

I honestly feel that making Berthoud a resort again would result more accidents of all types, including fatal avalanches, because of the "sidecountry" problem. Yes, proximity to the road is a factor making Berthoud a junk show much of the time, but proximity to a ski area is most likely even worse, because of the false sense of security it brings.

So -- let's drop the avalanche safety canard and focus on some other reasons to reopen Berthoud.

 

[tball]

https://www.fs.usda.gov/Internet/FSE_DOCUMENTS/fsm91_058033.pdf

I don't remember if anyone linked this yet, but it has been referred to.

The report says that in 1989-90, comfortable capacity at Berthoud was 400 skiers/day, with the possibility of adding 100 more. I am not seeing child care and weddings and a modern first-aid clinic in this scenario. I think the Silverton model is the only possibility, but the financials of Silverton are a closely guarded secret. They still charge $99/day for unguided -- and that is a very very few number of days, it's usually $229. Because you have to, you know, pay for bombs and mechanics and stuff.

That must have been after the lift accident that shut down the west side and before the new owner's lift improvements:

"By 1989, Berthoud Pass was sold to Gary Schulz of Pine Island, NY. Schulz, owner of the ski lift
manufacturing company Borvig, was looking to enter the Colorado lift market. During summer of 1989,
Schulz removed the old double chair and T-bar and replaced them with state-of-the-art lift equipment. A
quad chair was installed in a similar alignment to the double, while a triple chair replaced the T-bar. A
beginner’s double lift was added on the east side of the pass to entice families.

With the new lift improvements, Berthoud Pass could handle 5,100 skiers per hour with over 1,300 skiable
acres of terrain."

Source: http://www.coloradoskihistory.com/lost/bpass.html

1300 acres is just a bit smaller than A-basin's current footprint, except at Berthoud, three lifts can nicely serve those 1300 acres. The money saved on lifts and grooming (compared to a traditional ski area) can go toward ski patrol and mitigation.

With a huge uphill focus, a much larger ski area could be mitigated and patrolled, maybe 5,000 acres or more.

Current Berthoud Pass users can continue to use the area for free but with a much improved safety profile. What's not to like about that?

 

[Drahtguy Kevin]

^^^ I want what he’s smokin’! “Free” doesn’t pay the bills, especially when damn near everything would need to be built.

 

[SBrown]

Uphill capacity and daily capacity aren't the same thing.