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Avalanche Litigation -- and the CAIC

Mike King

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Interesting set of issues. The real rub? Will sharing information with the avalanche center become a source of liability? That would be a big impediment to learning from accidents.

 

doc

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I'm a lawyer, and I really dislike most lawyers, especially PI litigators. That said, this is a very well pled complaint, and reflects substantial education on the part of somebody.
The way our legal system is set up can frequently discourage learning from accidents/incidents, as that learning often involves admissions by parties who, by such admissions, become culpable.
To me, and I'm not intending to disparage Mr. Marshall's heirs, this case falls in the general category of sh*t happens so get over it except, perhaps, if allegations of defects in the avalanche air bag are proved up.
PS: I really like the way the Colorado Sun does its reporting.
 

scott43

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My department presides over a great deal of data and information. We have near weekly discussions on dissemination vs litigation. 98% of people are happy to help but it's the 2% who are seemingly in business to profit off of obscure errors who ruin it for everyone.
 

Slim

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I have heard research from other industries, it has been shown that those have a culture of sharing and owning up to errors and mistakes, and then discussing them and learning from them, have better outcomes as a whole.

So this seems to be a case where being right in the short term, doesn’t help the greater good in the long term.

I also worry how, if this lawsuit succeeds, avalanche schools and backcountry guides will be able to operate.

Edit: I don’t mean to say that the claim was right. In fact, it seems highly doubtful. For exempel, claiming that the airbag did was malfunctioning, becasue it was not deployed. We know many airbags aren’t deployed in slides, yet whenever someone does a test pull, they work just fine. So it seems way more likely to assume that, in the heat of the moment, it is darn hard to (remember to) pull your airbag trigger.
 
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Mike King

Mike King

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Further developments. Lots of pressure on the folk to plea and settle now, I'd bet.

 

DanoT

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In Canada saying "sorry" after an accident or any incident cannot by law be used as an admission of guilt against you. Perhaps something similar needs to be done as part of cooperating with accident investigations.
 

coskigirl

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I am currently taking Outdoor Recreation and Ski Law. My professor is a defendants' attorney so I'm wondering if he's involved in this one. I can't seem to find any filed response to the case to verify if he's involved.
 

Lauren

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Interesting set of issues. The real rub? Will sharing information with the avalanche center become a source of liability? That would be a big impediment to learning from accidents.


I don't think it's a bad thing to be hold people liable in certain situations (not saying I agree nor disagree with this one), but I can definitely see the negative impact that could have on sharing information. It's a slippery slope...

I just read through the CAIC report of this incident of out of curiosity. Obviously there is always some bias in news articles, and I wanted to see what an unbiased report found. Outside of the "normal" information about weather, snowpack and terrain, a couple things stood out to me. First being the discussion on using computer tools for slope estimation, and not solely relying on them...which makes a lot of sense, but being fairly new to the backcountry, I had never heard anyone iterate this point of view.
Assessing and Managing Slope Angle

In discussions after the accident, the group described trying to avoid avalanche terrain. One of the ways they were doing this was by traveling on slopes with an angle less than 30 degrees. Looking at slope steepness was part of their trip planning process and they used common digital tools to look at shaded slope angle layers draped over terrain models or topographic maps. With the help of these tools, they avoided avalanche terrain for most of the day. They also identified the narrow terrain feature where they could keep their slope angle at or below 29 degrees as they worked through much steeper terrain. Their GPS tracks shows that they were either on or very close to their planned route.

We measured slope angles during our visit to the accident site. Measured angles ranged from 32 to 34 degrees on the slope the group was descending when the avalanche released. This is only a few degrees steeper than the shading tools show, but in this case it may have been a very important difference. The group did not attempt to measure the slope angle before their descent. If they had, it is possible that they would have found this discrepancy. On some days and with some avalanche problems, the difference between 29 degrees and 32 degrees might not be significant. However, it can be significant when dealing with a Persistent Slab avalanche problem, especially when a remote trigger is possible.

The difference between a representation of the terrain and the actual terrain is a very important issue for everyone using these tools for route planning. The same issues hold for everything from paper maps to the most sophisticated digital tools. These are very useful tools, but they have limitations and they are most useful when coupled with observations of the physical terrain. In a specific example, the popular mapping software CalTopo derives the slope angle coverage from the USGS National Elevation Dataset (NED). The cells displayed by the software are nominally 10 meters across, though in some locations the underlying source data may be much coarser (Jacobs 2019). The NED could have errors of up to 100 feet in elevation (Scott 2009). Haneberg (2006) found that slope angles for a single cell within a 10 m grid often had a degree or two of error, with typical errors of plus or minus 4 degrees. Most of these tools use the elevation from multiple surrounding grid cells (often 8) to calculate the slope angle (ERSI, retrieved 2019). Thus, elevation errors in one grid cell can affect surrounding cells. With 10 meter cells and a 31-degree slope, a single cell with an elevation 100 feet too high gives a slope angle of 57 degrees, while a single cell 100 feet too low produces a slope angle of 24 degrees. McCollister and Birkeland (2008) examined this issue for avalanche applications and remarked that we are “looking at a depiction of reality. We tend to get excited about the graphics and colors dancing around on the computer screen in front of us and lose track of how that really reflects what is found on the ground.”

The second thing is the point about airbags and how Skier 2's pack was not deployed but was found to be functioning properly (also mentioned in the article). I, like the author of the article, am curious on what was found during the investigation that led them to believe he tried to trigger it.
Avalanche Airbags

Skier 2 was wearing an airbag backpack. After the accident we determined that the system was functioning properly, the trigger out of the pack strap, but the bag was not deployed. Skier 3 was also wearing an avalanche airbag backpack. He pulled the trigger when he was caught in the avalanche. The airbag did not deploy. Later, he determined that he assembled the trigger mechanism incorrectly. A study on airbag effectiveness (Haegli et. al. 2014) found that 60% of non-inflations were due to users not triggering the bag, and 12% of non-inflations were due to user error like mis-assembly.
 
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Mike King

Mike King

AKA Habacomike
Instructor
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Nov 13, 2015
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3,392
Location
Louisville CO/Aspen Snowmass
Thread Starter
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Mike King

Mike King

AKA Habacomike
Instructor
Joined
Nov 13, 2015
Posts
3,392
Location
Louisville CO/Aspen Snowmass

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