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Avalanche Situation

Mike King

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I think there's a time and a place for airbags. But if you're making a decision to stay out of avalanche terrain based on the current conditions, I think it's fine to leave that pack at home. When you make that decision, you're committing to staying off of that terrain regardless of your feeling when you get to the trailhead...it's essentially putting all avalanche terrain (and below it) into your "red zone" for the day.
And if you make a mistake and wind up in that terrain? What if it becomes a white-out and you accidentally stray into it? What about terrain traps that you might fall into even though the slope is not in "the red zone?"

Frankly, if you have an avalanche bag, use it. And make a plan and stick to it unless there's a very good reason to deviate from it.

Mike
 

charlier

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This argument of higher risk acceptance for airbags was also applied to helmets when they first became popular. But once helmets became ubiquitous and just normal safety gear, imo they no longer elicited above normal risky behaviour. I suggest that wider acceptance and use of airbags could also result in no increase in risk acceptance going forward.
AIARE instructors and IFMGA/AMGA guides have not changed their risk manage from using airbags. During avy classes, I really hammer home that my students should never change risk management due to technology, such as airbags.

If you get caught in an avalanche in high hazard (e.g., DPS) and/or high consequence terrain, you won’t survive no matter what kind of rescue gear you use. One thought - of the 52 fatalities from a European study shows that 60% of victims did not deploy their airbags.

And if you make a mistake and wind up in that terrain? What if it becomes a white-out and you accidentally stray into it? What about terrain traps that you might fall into even though the slope is not in "the red zone?"

Frankly, if you have an avalanche bag, use it. And make a plan and stick to it unless there's a very good reason to deviate from it.

Mike
I certainly hope if anyone has taken a Level 1 avy classs, their route has identified terrain traps, even with challenging terrian (ATES scale). Or if the visibility changes, they will dial down their ski objectives and choose simpler terrain from their touring options.
 
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Lauren

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And if you make a mistake and wind up in that terrain? What if it becomes a white-out and you accidentally stray into it? What about terrain traps that you might fall into even though the slope is not in "the red zone?"

This might be where east/west coast have different opinions on leaving an airbag at home. It’s very easy on the east coast to stay out of avalanche terrain and have essentially zero possibility of accidentally ending up in it.
 
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James

James

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AIARE instructors and IFMGA/AMGA guides have not changed their risk manage from using airbags. During avy classes, I really hammer home that my students should never change risk management due to technology, such as airbags.

If you get caught in an avalanche in high hazard (e.g., DPS) and/or high consequence terrain, you won’t survive no matter what kind of rescue gear you use. One thought - of the 52 fatalities from a European study shows that 60% of victims did not deploy their airbags.


I certainly hope if anyone has taken a Level 1 avy classs, their route has identified terrain traps, even with challenging terrian (ATES scale). Or if the visibility changes, they will dial down their ski objectives and choose simpler terrain from their touring options.
Do you think digging a snow pit would’ve changed the assessment of Wilson Glades?
They skied it three times without sliding, so that could work against the sno pit info?
 

Rod9301

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Do you think digging a snow pit would’ve changed the assessment of Wilson Glades?
They skied it three times without sliding, so that could work against the sno pit info?
The snow pit would've shown the faceted layer, but again, they should have known about it before heading out.
 

Mike King

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AIARE instructors and IFMGA/AMGA guides have not changed their risk manage from using airbags. During avy classes, I really hammer home that my students should never change risk management due to technology, such as airbags.

If you get caught in an avalanche in high hazard (e.g., DPS) and/or high consequence terrain, you won’t survive no matter what kind of rescue gear you use. One thought - of the 52 fatalities from a European study shows that 60% of victims did not deploy their airbags.


I certainly hope if anyone has taken a Level 1 avy classs, their route has identified terrain traps, even with challenging terrian (ATES scale). Or if the visibility changes, they will dial down their ski objectives and choose simpler terrain from their touring options.
Of course. My point is that "shit happens," and despite the best laid plans, intentions, experience, practices and procedure you may still find yourself in a position where the airbag on your back might give you a chance of surviving. It will do absolutely no good hanging in your home.

No doubt that deciding NOT to travel in terrain and conditions that is potentially unsafe is the first course of action, but IMHO leaving safety equipment at home in some bizarre theory that it alters your behavior is potentially self defeating.
 

charlier

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Do you think digging a snow pit would’ve changed the assessment of Wilson Glades?
They skied it three times without sliding, so that could work against the sno pit info?

The snow pit would've shown the faceted layer, but again, they should have known about it before heading out.
My condolences to their family, friends, and the Utah community. I rather not discuss details or human factors from this tragedy. Lesions learned - check the avalanche report (considerable - high, elevation dependent), the avalanche problem (PSL on all northern aspects and wind drifted snow on all aspects, and size ranging from D2 to greater. My personal view is choosing an appropriate route given the conditions were much more important than digging a snow pit.
 

Rod9301

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My condolences to their family, friends, and the Utah community. I rather not discuss details or human factors from this tragedy. Lesions learned - check the avalanche report (considerable - high, elevation dependent), the avalanche problem (PSL on all northern aspects and wind drifted snow on all aspects, and size ranging from D2 to greater. My personal view is choosing an appropriate route given the conditions were much more important than digging a snow pit.
Staying home would've been the better option
 

Tom Holtmann

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Of course. My point is that "shit happens," and despite the best laid plans, intentions, experience, practices and procedure you may still find yourself in a position where the airbag on your back might give you a chance of surviving. It will do absolutely no good hanging in your home.

No doubt that deciding NOT to travel in terrain and conditions that is potentially unsafe is the first course of action, but IMHO leaving safety equipment at home in some bizarre theory that it alters your behavior is potentially self defeating.
Moral Hazard originated in the economic literature of insurance and was the observation that having insurance (a helmet, seat belts, air bag) might have the effect of causing actors to behave in a more risky manner knowing that they have insurance. But this is a secondary effect which is almost always mitigated by the primary effect. For our purposes, know thyself. If you think wearing a helmet or airbag is going to cause a huge change in your behavior then you should be aware of that but for most of us the overall effect is that it reduces risk.
 

Tricia

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This was on Chris Davenport's twitter feed.
 

tball

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Terribly sad story. Tragic for the kid and the rest of the family:
 
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James

James

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Here’s a relatively recent interview with Bruce Tremper. Tremper got into avalanche study after a very scary slide he was involved in at Bridger Bowl many years ago.

————-
In this episode, learn about Tremper’s personal system for a safe backcountry ski tour. He emphasizes that his routine begins at home with gathering the right gear, checking the local avalanche forecast, and plotting out a safe route on the map. Tremper talks about the importance of picking the right partners for winter backcountry travel, how many people make up the ideal party, and what usually happens when too many people join the group.
——————
 

Uncle-A

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French snowboarder killed in avalanche in Switzerland. Former Olympic champion Julie Pomagalski who was also gold medalist at the world championship. Was killed Tuesday 23 March 2021.
 

dbostedo

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French snowboarder killed in avalanche in Switzerland. Former Olympic champion Julie Pomagalski who was also gold medalist at the world championship. Was killed Tuesday 23 March 2021.
Her guide, Bruno Cutelli, was also killed. :nono:
 

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