Back Seat- Boot Related?

[Wilhelmson]

The newer boots and binding definitely will set you back a year. My fitter told me in kinder words to throw the spoilers out.

 

[Tom K.]

You got new boots. Your highly tuned body is used to your old boots. Before you mod your boots, ski them a bit and your advanced bio system will adjust accordingly. You might end up liking them better the way they are.

Well, I'll just go ahead and be the eleventy-ith person to note that this also happened to me this season.

Though there are also still times when I think that just a smidge more forward lean would be just fine.

 

[Tom K.]

My fitter told me in kinder words to throw the spoilers out.

A bit of generalizing here, IMO.

For me, over time:

Lange RX130 -- spoiler needed.
Atomic Hawx Ultra 130S -- no spoiler.
Nordica Speedmachine 130S -- spoiler needed.

One of the rippingest dad-guy skiers I know -- and an ex-WC bootfitter -- skis with thick spoilers that he fabbed himself.

 

[KingGrump]

Well that's the issue with these boots is the adjustment is not as simple as it looks. I chatted with @onenerdykid regarding this adjustment. Here's what I found from our conversation plus messing around with the boots.
1- the pointer will not move off of the 15 mark.
2- as explained to me during our conversation- it is a two person job (not really, but easier). Get into the boot and get it snug, loosen both screws (T-30), lean forward and tighten both screws
3- no idea how much lean was gained as the Power Shift cover does not slide up or down- just see more space between the bottom of the Power Shift cover and the top of the heel. It's a visual confirmation that more forward lean was obtained, because the pointer will not move off the 15 mark.
4- the instructions that come with the boot are useless and incorrect for adjusting the forward lean.

What I would like to see from Atomic is to have separate 15, 16 and 17 degree Power Shift covers to use that are designed correctly and corresponds to the actual numbers next to the cover. At 15 degrees the bottom of the cover is in contact with the top of the heel (look at @Jilly picture), so when you increase forward lean there is separation between these two locations and it's just the screws that are holding the boot more forward. I would like to still see the two pieces in contact with each other as this would probably keep it locked in better. If the screws get loose at all, the boot will go back to the 15 degree lean.

That being said, I did adjust the forward lean to as much as I could last. I now have at least a 1mm gap between the cover and the heel on both boots.

The forward lean angle is lock on by engaging the serrations on the power shift cover. Not by the screw.. The screw just locks the cover to the corresponding part on the spine.
It is much easier to take apart the power shift cover to adjust the forward lean. Well, at least loose enough to disengage the the serrations on the boot spine from those on the cover.
Not saying the adjustment process can't be performed by a single person. But it's a hell lot easier with two.

Inside view of the power shift cover from a Hawx Ultra 115 and corresponding serrations on the boot spine.

IME, different boots will ski differently regardless how similar they are set up. Had 3 pair of Fischer Vac all molded at 14°. Switch to an Atomic boot. The factory set up was 16°. Didn't like the way the boot skied. Swap out the stock shim to an 18° shim and added a spoiler. Much happier with the boot. YMMV.

 

[Wilhelmson]

A bit of generalizing here, IMO.

For me, over time:

Lange RX130 -- spoiler needed.
Atomic Hawx Ultra 130S -- no spoiler.
Nordica Speedmachine 130S -- spoiler needed.

One of the rippingest dad-guy skiers I know -- and an ex-WC bootfitter -- skis with thick spoilers that he fabbed himself.

Correct and op is probably a better skier than me. It would be the easiest thing to try first.

 

[Chip]

The forward lean angle is lock on by engaging the serrations on the power shift cover. Not by the screw.. The screw just locks the cover to the corresponding part on the spine.
It is much easier to take apart the power shift cover to adjust the forward lean. Well, at least loose enough to disengage the the serrations on the boot spine from those on the cover.
Not saying the adjustment process can't be performed by a single person. But it's a hell lot easier with two.

Inside view of the power shift cover from a Hawx Ultra 115 and corresponding serrations on the boot spine.

View attachment 196626

IME, different boots will ski differently regardless how similar they are set up. Had 3 pair of Fischer Vac all molded at 14°. Switch to an Atomic boot. The factory set up was 16°. Didn't like the way the boot skied. Swap out the stock shim to an 18° shim and added a spoiler. Much happier with the boot. YMMV.

I guess what I don’t know is if the rivnuts will move down. These are on the backside of the bottom shell part of the boot and the screw pulls the bottom part and the cuff together and locks them in. The spacing on the serrations seem to be the correct distance for the adjustments, but nothing slides up or down. Try sliding the cover down one serration notch and see if the screw holes line up. They don’t on my boots as the rivnuts don’t move and the cover doesn’t have slotted holes for this adjustment either. Look at the top rivnut that is removed from your picture. That hole is just big enough for the rivnut and that hole is through the bottom part of the shell. To me it seems like they were heading in the right direction but never finished the design to make it work.
Maybe I’m just missing something.

 

[Chip]

A bit of generalizing here, IMO.

For me, over time:

Lange RX130 -- spoiler needed.
Atomic Hawx Ultra 130S -- no spoiler.
Nordica Speedmachine 130S -- spoiler needed.

One of the rippingest dad-guy skiers I know -- and an ex-WC bootfitter -- skis with thick spoilers that he fabbed himself.

So I just have to remember to look at this thread next year for all these ideas.
I was having all sorts of fun skiing that I really didn’t think about any of this until I started driving home. But removing the spoiler would have been an easy thing to try.

 

[KingGrump]

I guess what I don’t know is if the rivnuts will move down. These are on the backside of the bottom shell part of the boot and the screw pulls the bottom part and the cuff together and locks them in. The spacing on the serrations seem to be the correct distance for the adjustments, but nothing slides up or down. Try sliding the cover down one serration notch and see if the screw holes line up. They don’t on my boots as the rivnuts don’t move and the cover doesn’t have slotted holes for this adjustment either. Look at the top rivnut that is removed from your picture. That hole is just big enough for the rivnut and that hole is through the bottom part of the shell. To me it seems like they were heading in the right direction but never finished the design to make it work.
Maybe I’m just missing something.

Takes a lot of force to flex move the spine of the boot. Best done with two people. One n the boot and one tinkering. You are only trying to move it about 1 mm. If you have issue with hole clearance on the spine plate, You can just clean it out with a Dremel.

 

[Tony S]

To me it seems like they were heading in the right direction but never finished the design to make it work.

Basically you just described a ski boot.

 

[Chip]

Takes a lot of force to flex move the spine of the boot. Best done with two people. One n the boot and one tinkering. You are only trying to move it about 1 mm. If you have issue with hole clearance on the spine plate, You can just clean it out with a Dremel.

I was able to move the spline at least 1mm last night. Just put my boot on and used a ski to get some good forward lean going.

I was going to have a friend 3D print new covers for me, but decided I’ll just give it a try the way it is now. Plus that’s what onenerdykid suggested. If I find that this adjustment works, but keeps moving back to the original location, then I may consider a dremel. But the dremel idea is what I was referring to in my earlier post about having different covers manufactured for different degrees of lean.

 

[KingGrump]

If I find that this adjustment works, but keeps moving back to the original location,

If setting the spine to 17° is done correctly, the cover should not move back to the 15° position. The lean angle is dictated by moving the alignment of the serration on the cover up or down by one or more step(s). The bottom of cover plate is the positive stop between the lower clog and the cuff. Locking down the cover plate to the spine plate via the serrations should yield a positive positioning of the forward lean angle. If the forward lean angle change after proper adjustment then you most likely have a elongated hole in the cuff which the tee nut is seated.

When I suggested using the dremel to create a bit more room, I was referring to the spine plate and not the cuff material.

Anyway, where is the boot fitter that sold you the boot? He/she should be the one doing the work.

 

[RoninSkier]

So while I was just skiing up at Stowe and Jay Peak this past week I experienced something that I rarely ever do- and that’s ending up in the back seat in moguls. This happened with 3 different pairs of skis. So during my long drive back home I started thinking about why. The only thing that has changed in my setup/equipment are my boots. While I was getting fitted for the new boots, we discussed forward lean, and I wanted to make sure that we got that correct. So what the fitter did was to place each boot (old and new) against the wall and measure out to the top of the cuff. Well, we got those measurements almost exact. But this got me thinking- What if the boots are different heights? Then these measurements would result in different angles. When I got home, I pulled out the old boots and sure enough the cuff height is different with the old boot being shorter. The diagram below shows what I’m talking about.
View attachment 196519


Then I placed each boot against a flat surface and snapped this picture- old boot forefront, new boot behind. To me the old boot has more forward lean and more closely matches my normal skiing stance- new boots I do feel more upright.

Old Boot- Salomon Impact 10 CS

New Boot- Atomic Hawx Prime 130s

View attachment 196520

To me this seems like the culprit of my backseat skiing.

Have at it all you ski talkers that know more than I do.

According to some, boot angles became more relaxed, more up right, when 'all mtn' and slope style etc came out.

For me even as an older skier I have my atomic prime 120S set at 17 degrees at the back, forward lean spoilers in, ramp angle up so that I am about 22-4 degrees forward. To accomodate my build. If i were still a regular bump skier I would just loosen my 2 cuff buckles 1 notch for the bumps.

Test what works for you -

If its flex - try one notch looser on the 2 buckles on the cuffs. This will verify it that is the main cause. A lot of experts with stiff boots do this for the bumps.
And a lot of skiers are in too stiff boots.

If its forward lean - try rear spoilers behind the liner inside the cuff - spacers, plastic or rubber shims, cut up cheap gel insoles from the dollar store. Test different shim thicknesses to verify if its the main cause.

If its ramp angle - try lifts under the foot board or shims under the liner between the footboard.
And if so you will have to reheat form the liners.

GL

 

[Chip]

If setting the spine to 17° is done correctly, the cover should not move back to the 15° position. The lean angle is dictated by moving the alignment of the serration on the cover up or down by one or more step(s). The bottom of cover plate is the positive stop between the lower clog and the cuff. Locking down the cover plate to the spine plate via the serrations should yield a positive positioning of the forward lean angle. If the forward lean angle change after proper adjustment then you most likely have a elongated hole in the cuff which the tee nut is seated.

When I suggested using the dremel to create a bit more room, I was referring to the spine plate and not the cuff material.

Anyway, where is the boot fitter that sold you the boot? He/she should be the one doing the work.

I’ll look at this again tomorrow after work. I think I understand how this should work, but it doesn’t seem to work that way.
As for my fitter, he’s 4 hours away, so it’s not like I just swing bye the shop.
I understood about using the dremel on the cover and not the cuff.
Thanks for all the help.

 

[Tin Pants]

So while I was just skiing up at Stowe and Jay Peak this past week I experienced something that I rarely ever do- and that’s ending up in the back seat in moguls. This happened with 3 different pairs of skis. So during my long drive back home I started thinking about why. The only thing that has changed in my setup/equipment are my boots. While I was getting fitted for the new boots, we discussed forward lean, and I wanted to make sure that we got that correct. So what the fitter did was to place each boot (old and new) against the wall and measure out to the top of the cuff. Well, we got those measurements almost exact. But this got me thinking- What if the boots are different heights? Then these measurements would result in different angles. When I got home, I pulled out the old boots and sure enough the cuff height is different with the old boot being shorter. The diagram below shows what I’m talking about.
View attachment 196519


Then I placed each boot against a flat surface and snapped this picture- old boot forefront, new boot behind. To me the old boot has more forward lean and more closely matches my normal skiing stance- new boots I do feel more upright.

Old Boot- Salomon Impact 10 CS

New Boot- Atomic Hawx Prime 130s

View attachment 196520

To me this seems like the culprit of my backseat skiing.

Have at it all you ski talkers that know more than I do.

this sounds counter intuitive but more forward lean will not put you more forward it can do the opposite to much forward lean will close the ankle if this takes you beyond the ROM of your ankle you can not bend your ankle any more and what can also happen is that when you reach the end of you ankle ROM is that your heel lifts of the footbed of the boot when that happens it is very hard to ski so you end up leaning back a little to anchor the heel on the boot another thing to consider is the size of you calfs if you have big calf's that will push your lower leg forward also be careful with forward lean too mucn will make it hard to ski

 

[Nobody]

Whilst the above is generally true, IMVHO, It is very variable, person to person. A fwd lean spoiler (same type, same boots) can have very different effects on different persons.

 

[RoninSkier]

this sounds counter intuitive but more forward lean will not put you more forward it can do the opposite to much forward lean will close the ankle if this takes you beyond the ROM of your ankle you can not bend your ankle any more and what can also happen is that when you reach the end of you ankle ROM is that your heel lifts of the footbed of the boot when that happens it is very hard to ski so you end up leaning back a little to anchor the heel on the boot another thing to consider is the size of you calfs if you have big calf's that will push your lower leg forward also be careful with forward lean too mucn will make it hard to ski

Forward lean & heel lifts are not only for tibia/femur length issues, they effectively give you more leverage, faster reaction to be able to flex. Over doing forward lean w/o heel lift or doing these w/o need you create restriction, problems. You have to adjust both as needed depending on your strength and range of motion.

IMHO

 

[Chip]

this sounds counter intuitive but more forward lean will not put you more forward it can do the opposite to much forward lean will close the ankle if this takes you beyond the ROM of your ankle you can not bend your ankle any more and what can also happen is that when you reach the end of you ankle ROM is that your heel lifts of the footbed of the boot when that happens it is very hard to ski so you end up leaning back a little to anchor the heel on the boot another thing to consider is the size of you calfs if you have big calf's that will push your lower leg forward also be careful with forward lean too mucn will make it hard to ski

I've read about this and understand it, but did you see the pictures I posted showing the difference in forward lean between the old and new boots? IMO the difference is substantial and is potentially the cause of me getting into the back seat and all I'm trying to do is get close to what the old boot was. I will be experimenting with different things next year to see if it makes a difference.

In my mind, everyone has a neutral position when skiing. The body parts are all where they are supposed to be and you are kind of neutral in the boots. What I'm thinking is that with the less forward lean, for me to be neutral, I have to put pressure on the tongue of the boot which in turn puts pressure on the tips. So do skiers have different neutral stances or not? Or do all skiers have the same neutral stance? There were other things that weren't the same with my skiing that I noticed- things that you just do without having to think about. But that wasn't the case, I had to consciously think about little things that in the past were automatic. So I did change stuff in my skiing to make it work, but not everything. In the end I had a blast skiing- as it should be.....

 

[scvaughn]

I'll join the "me too" chorus on this one. In December 2022, I moved from Dalbello DS110s to Nordica ProMachine 130s, per the recommendations of a competent boot fitter, and a L4 instructor. Apparently, I have greater than average ankle mobility, and given where and how I ski, the recommendation made sense. The instructor picked up on the issues while watching me ski, and recommended that I try different boots. He observed that I was doing the things he asked me to do, but they weren't working.

At first, I felt like I was being forced in the back seat, because the new boots promoted a more upright stance. Skiing the way I had been didn't work well at all in the Nordicas. What I discovered is that the old boots allowed me crouch too much when shifting my weight forward, because I was absolutely crushing them. This is a habit I have been actively working to break since last season, with limited success.

After 30 days in the new boots, I have adjusted to the more upright stance, learned to shift my weight forward differently, and appreciate the increased stiffness, because my legs don't get as sore as they used to, even though I am skiing farther than ever, on increasingly difficult terrain. The old boots were holding me back, by allowing me to flex too far forward. It seems counterintuitive, but I now love the Nordicas.

 

[Tin Pants]

also do not forget the ramp angle may be different in the different in the 2 boots giving them a different feel tom gellie did a pod cast on this with brent amsbury a well known boot fitter yo may want to listen to ithttps://bigpictureskiing.com/pages/big_picture_skiing_podcast, yes there is a neutral place IMO I personally try and balance on my arch at a point just in front of my heel I personally think pushing on the front of the boot is not necessary on modern skis modern skis work best when you stand on the sweet spot and tip them on the edge this make them bend more and turn quicker markj made a good comment in another thread about this but I have lost it pushing on the front of the boot is a cul-de-sac I went down and now have come back out of also the difference in cuff height will make a difference in the forward lean, as your calf will sit in a different place tn the cuff again this will affect the forward lean

 

[Chip]

@Tin Pants - so a couple things-
1- thanks for the pod cast- I will listen to that for sure
2- I have skinny calves, so I don't think the cuff height is effecting me that much- plus it really isn't that much difference. But I'll look at that tonight when I get home as I plan to attempt the forward lean adjustment again now that I have a better understanding on how it's supposed to work.

@scvaughn - I hear you on this, and I agree that it could all be for the better. Hopefully I get to ski a bunch next year. I went from over 30 days last year, to just 7 this year. I know my old boots didn't hold me back and didn't cause any fatigue/soreness (expect in a couple hot spots on a toe and top of foot), so to me it's either these new boots aren't setup correctly for me yet, or I do have to change something as you and @dbostedo were saying. The trying to change the setup on the boot seems simple to me as the things I will try are quick and easy (once I figure out this forward lean adjustment ). But taking 30 days to change how I ski doesn't seem like the way I want to go.