Back Seat- Boot Related?

[Ivan]

One of the best threads on this forum, ever: https://www.skitalk.com/threads/is-your-equipment-helping-or-hindering-your-fore-aft-balance.24552/

For me personally, having too much forward lean seems to result in being in the back seat. I have really long legs, and when there is too much forward lean in the boots, my hips move back to compensate for this. YMMV, however, because every skier is different (different ankle flexibility, different leg length, different relationship between the tibia and femur length, etc.).

 

[Nobody]

@Tin Pants - so a couple things-
1- thanks for the pod cast- I will listen to that for sure
2- I have skinny calves, so I don't think the cuff height is effecting me that much- plus it really isn't that much difference. But I'll look at that tonight when I get home as I plan to attempt the forward lean adjustment again now that I have a better understanding on how it's supposed to work.

@scvaughn - I hear you on this, and I agree that it could all be for the better. Hopefully I get to ski a bunch next year. I went from over 30 days last year, to just 7 this year. I know my old boots didn't hold me back and didn't cause any fatigue/soreness (expect in a couple hot spots on a toe and top of foot), so to me it's either these new boots aren't setup correctly for me yet, or I do have to change something as you and @dbostedo were saying. The trying to change the setup on the boot seems simple to me as the things I will try are quick and easy (once I figure out this forward lean adjustment ). But taking 30 days to change how I ski doesn't seem like the way I want to go.

Well, think about your days on snow as a path with archways (gates) set at different points in time (days). Upon reaching each gate, you will find that you are more comfortable for what i concerns skiing, in different area.
Three days? Absolute minimum skiing days (better if in a row) to get back in "tune" with your old/current ski boots.
10 days? perfect in tune with those boots
20 days? Muscle memory completely back
30 days? better movement / fine tune
40 days? ski with power and smoothness.
And so on and so forth
So, if you shall take 30 days to get in synch with your new boots, so be it. I know it took that much (maybe a bit more, spread over different seasons due to the stopping and going these past years have had) for me, and now it's almost time to change again.

 

[Tony S]

this sounds counter intuitive but more forward lean will not put you more forward it can do the opposite to much forward lean will close the ankle if this takes you beyond the ROM of your ankle you can not bend your ankle any more and what can also happen is that when you reach the end of you ankle ROM is that your heel lifts of the footbed of the boot when that happens it is very hard to ski so you end up leaning back a little to anchor the heel on the boot another thing to consider is the size of you calfs if you have big calf's that will push your lower leg forward also be careful with forward lean too mucn will make it hard to ski

also do not forget the ramp angle may be different in the different in the 2 boots giving them a different feel tom gellie did a pod cast on this with brent amsbury a well known boot fitter yo may want to listen to ithttps://bigpictureskiing.com/pages/big_picture_skiing_podcast, yes there is a neutral place IMO I personally try and balance on my arch at a point just in front of my heel I personally think pushing on the front of the boot is not necessary on modern skis modern skis work best when you stand on the sweet spot and tip them on the edge this make them bend more and turn quicker markj made a good comment in another thread about this but I have lost it pushing on the front of the boot is a cul-de-sac I went down and now have come back out of also the difference in cuff height will make a difference in the forward lean, as your calf will sit in a different place tn the cuff again this will affect the forward lean

Let me introduce you to some friends of mine:

. , ; ?!

Also, Capital Letters.

 

[Tin Pants]

it is to easy to get obsessed with boot set I am sure many of us have done this this is skiing not formula one the answer is more likely to be in your movements than the equipment been there done that equipment is important but look for the obvious answer

 

[Rod9301]

QTF
I switched from Tecnica 9.8r 110 to Dalbello DRS 110, BC (Before COVID, in fact right in Jan-Feb-March 2020)
At first all seemed ok, then coaches/instructors started to tell me I was too upright, sometimes too "jumpy" in the STs. Then outright in the backseat.
In a panic, thinking the DB were to upright compared to the Tecnica, I attempted "all" sort of solution (spoiler, no spoiler, custom foot-bed, no custom foot-bed) even put the DB liners into the Tecnica shells (which seemed to obtain two effects, make me feel the Tecnica as if they were a bit stiffer, and felt it put me in the "right" stance). Next season doesn't really count as I skied "full" DBs but without much of a feedback (I did not feel in the backseat, but wasn't really applying myself to a self conscious/self analysis type of skiing)...and then,
at the end of the season (after having being ill and recovering for most of the winter due to you-know-what) I tried to ski in "full" Tecnica and compare to "full" DBs...meh, couldn't come to a definitive conclusion, except that the Tecnica were too worn out (also size were different 27.5 the Tecnica and 26.5 the DBs)
Fast forward to this winter, again I was told and felt I was being in the backseat. This time I was skiing DBs only. So started again to panic. Tried this and that, take the spolier out seemed to apport some relief (at least I felt), but when I skied under the eye of a coach in January, again I was told I was in the backseat. Until, until I started to conciously lean forward, almost to the point I felt I was falling over myself. At that point the coach started to acknowledge I was no longer in the back seat. See, it was not the boot, it was me. I even added the spoiler back but as long as I was making a concious effort to "lean forward" (feel "all" the pressure of my body-weight on the toes and first half of the feet) I was not feeling myself, and be told to be, in the backseat.
Even to this day, I must consciously apply myself in staying centered, which, feeling-wise, means I must feel myself almost too far forward...
So, work on yourself first, or at least be as sure as you can of yourself, then get to work on the equipment settings.

You don't want to feel your weight on the forward part of the foot, weight should be under the arch.

 

[Rod9301]

this sounds counter intuitive but more forward lean will not put you more forward it can do the opposite to much forward lean will close the ankle if this takes you beyond the ROM of your ankle you can not bend your ankle any more and what can also happen is that when you reach the end of you ankle ROM is that your heel lifts of the footbed of the boot when that happens it is very hard to ski so you end up leaning back a little to anchor the heel on the boot another thing to consider is the size of you calfs if you have big calf's that will push your lower leg forward also be careful with forward lean too mucn will make it hard to ski

True

 

[Henry]

I noticed Chip's problem when I switched skis & bindings with my current boots. For me two of my bindings have 3 mm shims under the heel bindings. Perfect. I rented a pair of Volkl RaceTigers with the included Marker bindings, and they were the perfect set up for me without adjustments. So, find that happy neutral spot whether it takes boot adjustments or binding adjustments. The right solution is the solution right for you.

 

[AchtungSki]

In my personal experience, the wrong boot geometry messes you up all over the hill not just moguls. If you have less forward lean than you're used to though getting knocked back during deep flexion would make sense.

I feel like a pretty big change you made is going from a 10+ year old pair of mid flexs to a new 130 flex with a taller cuff. If you're used to the old boots I think you'll find that you need to drive the new ones more than you're used to, especially in the moguls, which takes some getting used to.

 

[Chip]

Maybe I'm expecting too much from my new equipment. Maybe I need to dial it back and accept that I need to relearn skiing when ever I get new equipment.

I'm not necessarily buying that. I don't see why I can't get new equipment, and get it setup properly that I can just go out and ski without having to change how I ski. Is this asking too much? To me this should apply to boots, and maybe not skis. I have demoed plenty of skis and some I love right away, others take a couple of runs to figure out, and then others just don't work at all. Now I guess you could put those skis in the same bucket as "you need to change" something to be able to ski with those skis. To me- I just wouldn't invest the time and/or effort because I have something that I like already.

But for my boots, I do feel like I can get them tweaked to better suit my skiing style, rather than just going to the answer of "I have to change how I ski in these boots". Is the general opinion here that I should just ski the boots and learn how to ski in the new boots? Or is there any room to try to get them setup better for how I ski?

I'm loving all the input as it is giving me things to considered and look at. I understand that these new boots aren't my old boots- I was silly to think that they are a direct replacement and everything is perfect in my skiing world. I love a challenge, and I'm willing to put in a little effort to try and get the boots more dialed in to how I ski. I do like the boots- my hotspots aren't an issue anymore, and I want to keep them for a few more years. Whether I get another 10+ years out of these- only time will tell. This means that I hope to retire soon and ski a bunch more each year and wear them out in 5 years. We all need goals! The funny thing is that for my last 3 sets of boots- they were great right out of the box. So this is kind of new territory for me.

 

[Nobody]

You don't want to feel your weight on the forward part of the foot, weight should be under the arch.

That was an extreme dictated by the need to get me off from the back seat. Still, I remember a few years ago while having a new custom footbed done, the bootfitter remarked (after having taken my feet "print", that I was putting almost no weight on the toes, and most of it was from mid foot to heel...

 

[AchtungSki]

@Chip having just spent the last season getting new, stiffer boots dialed, I would say replicate your old boot's net ramp angle and old binding delta as close as you can. Then go ski them when you get a chance. It could very well be a combination of geometry tuning + acclimating to the new stiffness.

 

[Rod9301]

That was an extreme dictated by the need to get me off from the back seat. Still, I remember a few years ago while having a new custom footbed done, the bootfitter remarked (after having taken my feet "print", that I was putting almost no weight on the toes, and most of it was from mid foot to heel...

Which is where it should be, between mid foot and heel, ie under your tibia

 

[johnnyvw]

I had a similar experience in 2018. Signed on for the GTG that year, decided it may be a good idea to get new boots since mine were 18 YO at that time. Spent my ski days leading up to the GTG trying to adjust to the new boots (went from Tecnina to Hawk Ultra), chronically in the back seat. Long story short, went back to my old boots, I skied fine. Returned the boots under the shop's fit guarantee, ended up using the credit to get new boots for my wife. While trying them on, I remembered I liked the fit of the Dalbello "cabrio" style, and took a risk buying a NOS pair from ebay really cheap. These have worked perfectly (except I miss the fit of the Intuition liners I had in the Tecnicas). My perspective is I don't ski enough days during a year to spend them on fiddling with boots. They either work for me or they don't. For you folks that get 20 or 30 days (or more) during a year on snow, it may be a small price to pay.

 

[scvaughn]

@Tin Pants - so a couple things-
1- thanks for the pod cast- I will listen to that for sure
2- I have skinny calves, so I don't think the cuff height is effecting me that much- plus it really isn't that much difference. But I'll look at that tonight when I get home as I plan to attempt the forward lean adjustment again now that I have a better understanding on how it's supposed to work.

@scvaughn - I hear you on this, and I agree that it could all be for the better. Hopefully I get to ski a bunch next year. I went from over 30 days last year, to just 7 this year. I know my old boots didn't hold me back and didn't cause any fatigue/soreness (expect in a couple hot spots on a toe and top of foot), so to me it's either these new boots aren't setup correctly for me yet, or I do have to change something as you and @dbostedo were saying. The trying to change the setup on the boot seems simple to me as the things I will try are quick and easy (once I figure out this forward lean adjustment ). But taking 30 days to change how I ski doesn't seem like the way I want to go.

Hi Chip. I navigated the bulk of the learning curve in about seven days of skiing, and it's only getting better as I use them. I hope you are able to sort out your boot situation sooner rather than later. What works for one person may not work for another.

 

[Fuller]

I'm thinking your issue isn't so much the forward angle of the new boots as the increased stiffness. I recently went to a 130 boot and had some issues similar to yours. My previous boots had a power strap with a bit of give to it. Back off the top buckle and cinch the power strap and you get a nice progressive flex rather than a hard stop. I was surprised how much better it worked and next year I'll move that power strap over to the new boots.

 

[David Orr]

Just curious...what is your body build? Short/Med/Long Torso? Long Femur/Short Tip/Fib? Short Femur/LongTib/Fib? Normal Proportions?

I am short torso/longer femur than tib/fib = fighting upright/backseat

The reason I ask...had same problem until I changed forward lean and ramp angle and a MUCH more aggressive STANCE...I know it differs from moguls to racing...Just a thought.

*BTW I am NOT a boot fitter or a stance expert...but individual physiology matters.

 

[Chip]

So thanks @KingGrump for so graciously discussing the Power Shift adjustment with me last night, it finally clicked on how it worked. I just needed to sort it out in my pea brain. So adjusted from the 15 to 17, but I had to remove a couple extra parts off the boot to allow it to move. The second one took only 5 minutes compared to the first which, let’s just say, took longer.

After I adjusted the first one, I compared the two boots again to see how the lean matched up. Plus made some other comparison to see how different or similar the boots are to each other. First the forward lean got closer, but still looked a few degrees less on the new boot. Then I put them toe to toe and the new boot sits much higher due to grip walk. At this point I decided I needed to bring out some skis. Put the boots in the bindings and they are much closer (see pic) than before. So then I grabbed a couple short pieces of 1/2” pvc and slid them inside the back of each boot (kind of subjective but I felt fairly accurate). Well now the forward lean looks about even. The new boot has a thicker spoiler. So I packed the boots away and now I wait until next year to see if this fixed the issue.

 

[Nobody]

Which is where it should be, between mid foot and heel, ie under your tibia

The observation done was that mine was much more aft, almost completely on the heel.

 

[ScottB]

@Chip, I think you are on the right track with what you have done. As a race coach, I have dealt with these types of issues. What I have learned is everyone is different, and you have to sort out your equipment when you change something, unless the new has all the same "geometry" as the old.

One key thing you have not mentioned, your looking at the angle of your cuff from one boot to the other, are you also looking at the angle of your foot in the boot, from one to the other. This is called ramp angle. The real forward lean is the rear shell angle minus the ramp angle. If that is different between your boots its another effect. I was on new skis, with new bindings, and one year old boots. I had my Atomic Redster Club Sports set at 18 deg lean. It felt good on carving skis, as it put a lot of weight on my tips. On my new powder skis it didn't work. I backed of the lean to 16 deg, and put a 1 mm shim under my binding toe piece to decrease the binding delta angle. Basically the binding angle, boot ramp angle, and boot forward lean, and boot stiffness all combine to put you in a certain position on skis. You have to have all of those in a range that works for you. Trail and error is usually the way that gets sorted out. Some advance shops have Stance "stations" that you stand on and they adjust things until you feel comfortable. Its very personal and different for everyone. There's also usually a range that works well and as long as you are in the range, all is good.

A wedge shim is good for messing with forward lean. Boot ramp is mostly built into the boot, but heel lifts and grinding the boot board can change that if that is you want to experiment with (I usually leave that alone, hard to change), and binding delta is easily measured and you change that with shims under your binding (which may require longer screws too). Boot stiffness can be softened easily by increasing the V cut in the shell. (or loosen buckles a bit for minor changes)

For you, I assume you just changed the boot, so ramp angle, forward lean, and stiffness are your new parameters. You can personally adjust or you can play around with shims, forward lean adjustment, heel lifts, and buckle tightness and see what makes it better or worse. If you go to Doge Ski boots website they have some videos that deal with sorting out ski boot parameters, educational.

For me even as an older skier I have my atomic prime 120S set at 17 degrees at the back, forward lean spoilers in, ramp angle up so that I am about 22-4 degrees forward. To accomodate my build. If i were still a regular bump skier I would just loosen my 2 cuff buckles 1 notch for the bumps.

Test what works for you -

If its flex - try one notch looser on the 2 buckles on the cuffs. This will verify it that is the main cause. A lot of experts with stiff boots do this for the bumps.
And a lot of skiers are in too stiff boots.

If its forward lean - try rear spoilers behind the liner inside the cuff - spacers, plastic or rubber shims, cut up cheap gel insoles from the dollar store. Test different shim thicknesses to verify if its the main cause.

If its ramp angle - try lifts under the foot board or shims under the liner between the footboard.
And if so you will have to reheat form the liners.

I've read about this and understand it, but did you see the pictures I posted showing the difference in forward lean between the old and new boots? IMO the difference is substantial and is potentially the cause of me getting into the back seat and all I'm trying to do is get close to what the old boot was. I will be experimenting with different things next year to see if it makes a difference. Just looking at rear cuff angle could be misleading, but probably OK, I would look at the center line of the cuff when buckled up. I ideally take a picture of your boots/leg when on your skis in both boots and compare.

In my mind, everyone has a neutral position when skiing. It will vary with speed, more crouch with more speed up to a point, but yes. The body parts are all where they are supposed to be and you are kind of neutral in the boots. What I'm thinking is that with the less forward lean, for me to be neutral, I have to put pressure on the tongue of the boot which in turn puts pressure on the tips. So do skiers have different neutral stances or not? Yes they do. We all crouch or get into an "athletic stance" when skiing, the faster we go the more we crouch, as we crouch more, we adjust our butt/hips/waiste to keep COM neutral or slightly forward. To me neutral means no weight on front or back of cuff, that might not be the stance that I ski in, but it is where the boot puts me. As I ski, I put weight forward on the boot or back, depending on exactly what I am doing, it is a dynamic thing. The boot will resist and effect you anytime you aren't in the "boot's" neutral stance. I found matching your boots neutral stance to your "slow speed" neutral stance to be a good thing.

@Chip having just spent the last season getting new, stiffer boots dialed, I would say replicate your old boot's net ramp angle and old binding delta as close as you can. Then go ski them when you get a chance. It could very well be a combination of geometry tuning + acclimating to the new stiffness.

 

[Chip]

@ScottB - thanks for the details in your post. Couple things that I have thought about are:
Ramp angle- I think the boots are very close in regards to this, so I feel this is awash and not a cause/concern. That being said, I'll find out more next time I ski.
Stiffness- Old boot 120, new boot 130. So is one boot stiffer than the other? Not sure. They actually could be the same. But again, I don't feel that this is as big an issue as if I went from 100/110 to 130. I am learning how to buckle the new boots and change it up some during the day and from day to day. Haven't really seen much difference that the buckling makes. But something that I need to keep thinking about moving forward. There have been some good points made in this thread that has me thinking that I should be open to changing up the buckling.
Side by side comparison- I have thought about doing this, but the new boot is using the shims that were in the old boot, so I can't really do an accurate side by side comparison due to how the shims are attached to the boot board. Plus I reused the custom footbeds from the old boots in the new. So I don't feel I can swap everything over at this time. But like I said above- I think the ramp angles are very close.

At this time, I just have to wait until the next time I can ski- which is probably next year . But I feel the change I did make in the forward lean is heading in the right direction (hehe).