Bad/horrible factory tunes

ThomasD

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My local shop offers "internet pricing." So I can understand why a stone grind/tune up involves an upcharge. It's 2/3 off regular shop rates for anything bought through them and for as long as you own it, so that seems quite fair to me.
 

KingGrump

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TBH, most can't tell whether its a good or bad tune. From a vendor stand point, why bother with a tune before sending it out the door? Totally wasted motion.
Can't really blame them.
 

Philpug

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My local shop offers "internet pricing.
This is right up there with "Employee Pricing", it is just marketing. All dealers, B&M or on line are subject to the same Minimum Advertised Pricing (MAP) policies. Actually local shops have more flexability that on line retailers in that they can have in store sales (as long as they don't advertise the price) that a on line cannot
 

Bad Bob

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When buying skis at a shop, will barrow a straight edge from them before saying yes. Have had good experience with them stepping up to include a tune or a major discount to a tune.
I check them again before taking them out the door. Sometimes they 'forget'.
 

ThomasD

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This is right up there with "Employee Pricing", it is just marketing. All dealers, B&M or on line are subject to the same Minimum Advertised Pricing (MAP) policies. Actually local shops have more flexability that on line retailers in that they can have in store sales (as long as they don't advertise the price) that a on line cannot
Wait, so which am I getting, the Roger's Rate or the Patrick Price?

It's jut so confusing...

;-)
 
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anders_nor

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TBH, most can't tell whether its a good or bad tune. From a vendor stand point, why bother with a tune before sending it out the door? Totally wasted motion.
Can't really blame them.
When labeling the skis "master" in the name of skis? Im guessing most of people on a ski named master has an above average clue as to what an edge and base is, but you never know.
 

ThomasD

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For YOU? Very special! You are a smart guy. Don't tell anyone!
Well, the key word I mentioned was local. My 'local' shop now is an hour away. Up until a few years ago we had a more local shop (15 minutes) but the internet did away with them. Not so much, I suspect, from a loss of ski or boot sales, as much as declining sales in clothing and other gear.
 

KingGrump

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When labeling the skis "master" in the name of skis? Im guessing most of people on a ski named master has an above average clue as to what an edge and base is, but you never know.

Yup, never know.
Most ski choices are driven by marketing.
One of my favorite line skiing with others is "You paid $1K+ for those skis? Then why do your skiing still suck so bad?" :roflmao:
Most skiers buy skis based on reviews (by others) or by price. The more expensive, the more betterer.

It's like a 6'/#200 beginner skier on a pair of $2.5K 153cm Bomber ski. :huh:
 

Seldomski

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TBH, most can't tell whether its a good or bad tune. From a vendor stand point, why bother with a tune before sending it out the door? Totally wasted motion.
Can't really blame them.
In what snow conditions does the tune really matter? What about skiing style? Most of the recreational skiers I know are skiing on the bases, not the edges, and head for the bar when the snow is 'icy' out west. Also have some friends that live near resorts that NEVER tune their skis, or at most tune once at season start for the kids seasonal rentals. Shocker, they tend to ski only when snow is fresh and tune doesn't really matter.

I'd like it if online retailers did actually tune the product, but I can see why they don't since it could easily become a major problem with more product returns with the reason being 'bad tune.' Verifying the tune is bad without actually shipping the skis back sounds impossible. You'd need to send edge and base angle guides with the ski so consumer could inspect.
 
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fatbob

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It matters if your ski is totally railed and therefore you are locked into uncontrollable turns or significantly base high (concave) in which case you struggle to find an edge. Or different base/edge angles on different edges of a pair. For certain ability levels of course. But the OP is talking reasonably high end product and we've already seen that it no guarantee of getting a ski with the basics* right out of the wrapper/store.

*not specific personal preferences re angles or structure.

Not sure the message that most people who buy skis in stores are jerries so no need to provide them with a quality product/service is the best one for the industry but hey VR - maybe everything in the sport is a race to the bottom.
 

Noodler

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In what snow conditions does the tune really matter? What about skiing style? Most of the recreational skiers I know are skiing on the bases, not the edges, and head for the bar when the snow is 'icy' out west. Also have some friends that live near resorts that NEVER tune their skis, or at most tune once at season start for the kids seasonal rentals. Shocker, they tend to ski only when snow is fresh and tune doesn't really matter.

I'd like it if online retailers did actually tune the product, but I can see why they don't since it could easily become a major problem with more product returns with the reason being 'bad tune.' Verifying the tune is bad without actually shipping the skis back sounds impossible. You'd need to send edge and base angle guides with the ski so consumer could inspect.

I would argue that a good tune is even more important for less skilled skiers. A higher level skier is more likely to notice the tuning problem and know it's a tuning problem and will get it remediated. They also have the skills to adapt to the poor tune temporarily until they get it fixed. The poor lower level skier will not recognize the problem and just resign themselves to thinking either the ski sucks or that they suck (or maybe both).
 

GB_Ski

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In what snow conditions does the tune really matter? What about skiing style? Most of the recreational skiers I know are skiing on the bases, not the edges, and head for the bar when the snow is 'icy' out west. Also have some friends that live near resorts that NEVER tune their skis, or at most tune once at season start for the kids seasonal rentals. Shocker, they tend to ski only when snow is fresh and tune doesn't really matter.

I'd like it if online retailers did actually tune the product, but I can see why they don't since it could easily become a major problem with more product returns with the reason being 'bad tune.' Verifying the tune is bad without actually shipping the skis back sounds impossible. You'd need to send edge and base angle guides with the ski so consumer could inspect.
I think tuned is a bad way to describe the skis since it's personal choice. I think it's more of standardization and consistency of skis, as well as letting users know what those standards are. For example:
  • Edges are set at 1/1 for beginner, x/x for parks, 1/2 for everything recreational skis. 0/0 for race skis since racers will likely change that anyway.
  • Base should be flat.
The actual number themselves doesn't matter that much, but it needs to be consistent. If the skis say 1/1, I expect it to be 1/1 and base to be flat.
 

fatbob

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To save reinventing the wheel this was Tony S's cub scout promise on the thread which seemed to conclude the players in the industry couldn't possibly be accountable for delivering flat bases or consistent angles etc

I think it is possible to define a "good tune" (call this "in scope") without going into personal preference ("out of scope"). My sense is that of the many complaints over the years on many threads about bad tunes on potentially good skis, the vast majority are about tunes that don't meet the baseline definition of "good tune." They're not complaints about otherwise solid tunes that don't meet someone's personal preference.

Strawman definition of a good tune:
  • bases are flat, really flat
  • bases have a consistent well-executed structure, with no fuzz, etc.
  • base bevel is consistent* along the length of the ski
  • (consistent) base bevel is somewhere between 0.5 and 1.5 degrees.
  • side edge angle is consistent along the length of the ski between outermost on-edge contact points
  • (consistent) side edge angle is somewhere between 1 and 3 degrees
  • edges are sharp between outermost contact points (not detuned unless specifically requested by customer)
  • edges are not sharp beyond the outermost on-edge contact points
* Sure, extra credit if there is evidence that the base bevel is INTENTIONALLY modified near the tip and tail to provide modulated engagement, and there is evidence that this was done well. But I believe this is so rare as to be ignorable.

Edit: As a consumer I do not care whether the good tune was achieved by the factory or by the retailer. What I do care about is that the ski has a good tune when it is delivered.
 

markojp

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Long past thread about it - basically the industry thinks it is acceptable and there is always someone else in the chain to blame so even if customers think things should be done to a basic cub scout std they won't be and just have to suck it up.

This just isn't true. At all. Meeting production and shipping deadlines with staffing affected by illness, quarantine, etc... is IMHO, the reason for tuning consistency issues, and as you've all noticed, demand for product is through the roof.
 

fatbob

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This just isn't true. At all. Meeting production and shipping deadlines with staffing affected by illness, quarantine, etc... is IMHO, the reason for tuning consistency issues, and as you've all noticed, demand for product is through the roof.
Great - so next year once they've had time to adjust to the new reality nevermore will we see such complaints. Good to know.
 

Roundturns

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The other thing is, How can a ski shop conscionably let skis out of their shop with bad tunes? Isnt that the whole reason for shopping at your local ski shop? Shouldn't they do some kind of predelivery prep for you? Otherwise , you may as well buy off the interweb
Excellent point and value proposition for the brick and mortar shops to provide a basis to not use the internet as your ski shop.
 
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