Bad/horrible factory tunes

James

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Actually I'd be willing to bet that the average customer not only does not notice structure, but does not even know what it is for or even that it exists. But you do want to put that person out on the hill with a ski that's performing as designed, even if the skier isn't. Best chance for success and all that.
A) Customers aren’t buying these machines.
B) Customers who actually get skis tuned like shiny bases.
This is why when they get skis back, they want to see no scratches in the bases. That’s why many shops just routinely grind them.
C) If shiny base has a neat pattern it must be better than the non patterned base.
 
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anders_nor

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Wait, which skis is this for/on?
pair 1 in this thread, that got 1/3.

New SL 155 skis came perfect.. but then again I orderd them with all usual SL prep done, and to race, from a raceshop which also only does race skis and setup... so not really a huge surprise. how they came from factory I will not know.
 

trailtrimmer

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The worst I have seen are from the smaller, boutique brands. Shaggy's used to show up looking like the base grind was done with a chainsaw. The camber pockets are gimmicky crap that make tuning and waxing a PITA. I've had two sets of liberty's, they skied fine, after four passes in the shuttle to flatten and structure them.
 

crgildart

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^^^^Bring back center grooves on non park skis hahaha!

Honestly, coming up on 50 years skiing maybe 30+ pairs of skis. I've NEVER clicked in to anything that was sooo unskiable that 3 minutes with a gummy stone couldn't at least make them fun enough for the day until I got them on a bench to really tune them. I guess something really detuned like beyond a 1.5 base bevel would be pretty dangerous on a cold icy day.. but other than that.. just meh, let's tune it up a little better.

Again, tunes are personal, more personal the more you geek out. Even if a shop DID succeed in making sure every $1500 pair of skis is a perfect 1/3 tip to tail somebody's not going to like it that way.
 

James

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The camber pockets are gimmicky crap that make tuning and waxing a PITA.
What are those?

Honestly, coming up on 50 years skiing maybe 30+ pairs of skis. I've NEVER clicked in to anything that was sooo unskiable that 3 minutes with a gummy stone couldn't at least make them fun enough for the day until I got them on a bench to really tune them. I
Ah you’ve been spared. It’s possible to make skis unskiable and no gummy stone will correct it.
 

cantunamunch

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What are those?

It's a thing Shaggy's do to tweak their distal edge feel. Essentially it's an up/down wave in the base and edges:

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Coach13

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Mixed bag for me. My Fischer skis have been pretty good right out of the wrapper. My Dynastar skis were hit or miss depending on the ski and my Heads were both awful.
 

Tony S

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I've NEVER clicked in to anything that was sooo unskiable that 3 minutes with a gummy stone couldn't at least make them fun enough for the day
I think this comment may say more about your preferred style of skiing - or the location of it - than about skis.

For me, I have definitely had occasions - ALL of them on extremely dry grippy snow west of the Mississippi - where I have busted out the gummi stone and been happier afterward. But for every one of these I've had many more times where a gummi could only have made things worse. And then there have been the "not flat" times where a gummi would have simply been irrelevant. (I suppose you could argue that a railed ski might get more forgiving when flat with some gummi work but it would simultaneously get shakier on edge, so not a net improvement.)
 

cantunamunch

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crgildart

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I think this comment may say more about your preferred style of skiing - or the location of it - than about skis.

For me, I have definitely had occasions - ALL of them on extremely dry grippy snow west of the Mississippi - where I have busted out the gummi stone and been happier afterward. But for every one of these I've had many more times where a gummi could only have made things worse. And then there have been the "not flat" times where a gummi would have simply been irrelevant. (I suppose you could argue that a railed ski might get more forgiving when flat with some gummi work but it would simultaneously get shakier on edge, so not a net improvement.)
I've skied all through NM and Colorado along with the northeast, midwest, and now southeast.. I've skied some VERY shitty skis. More likely that "skiable" to me is a much lower bar than to mere mortals..
 

trailtrimmer

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What’s the point of it?
Is it somewhat like those DPS Spoons?

It’s to make it impossible to properly file/stone an edge making contact with the entire length of the edge evenly with no really proven impact on performance.

The same pockets make waxing a pain as they aren’t flat for the iron or scraping.

DPS may have a spoon, shaggys has a spork.
 

Dwight

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Distinctive feel? Uniqueness? I couldn't say; @Dwight and @firebanex ? have much more experience with Shaggys than I do.

You mean the DPS 'cleats' http://www.utahoutside.com/2011/02/dps-spoon-150-with-cleat-technology-adds-4th-dimension-to-skis/ Sort of but not really; the DPS feature made top notch engineering sense in that specific design and only that design.
Wrong guy to ask about Shaggys. First time I tuned one, I had to call them and ask what was wrong with the base. I've been on 2 pair and one was a terrible tune. I'm biased and not in a positive way.
 

firebanex

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Keep in mind that my entire sample size is three pairs of skis. Shaggy's upgraded their tuning machines and moved to a larger building in between skis number two and three. Two pairs (Ahmeek 95 and a Medora 95) are from the old location in 2020 and my Ahmeek 115's one from the new factory in summer 2021. Fairly small difference in the appearance and consistency of the base and edges between the two pairs of 95s. All three pairs are flat but the newer 115's just look better finished than the 95's. Base angle was good but the side edges were not 100% consistent on the 95's. The edges were great on the 115's, a nice 1* base/2* edge across the entire thing.

Wife has the Medora 95's which are the female specific build of the Ahmeeks. She adores them and had zero issue with the out of box tune and I've tried to keep the edges the same for her.

There was a learning curve for me on the 95s because I could seriously feel the camber pockets grabbing and locking in the turns. It was one of the weirdest feeling on a ski I've felt, right up there with how different a Renoun ski feels on the first couple runs. I actually called and talked to Shaggy's about the crazy tenacious locked in feeling I was getting from the ski, it wasn't really something they had heard of so I decided it was mostly me and started playing with the tune of the ski. I now only tune the edges to about 2-3 inches past the camber pockets and leave it dull beyond there. It still had great edge hold but now releases easier. I'm much happier with them with those slight adjustments. I've not taken the 115's onto groomed or hard snow yet to see if despite the larger amount of tip rocker, if it still exhibits an above average edge hold from the camber pockets. I'm bringing them out this weekend to just get more time on them, I'll see if anything stands out to me.
 

markojp

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So you are not letting product out the door of a poor standard and finish so why undersell yourself by saying that its on the customer to check for flatness?

I totally accept that they aren't universal - I have a friend that runs a ski shop and I know he won't let any manufacturer's errors pass him by on the way to a customer because he trades on his personal reputation and competes successfully with far bigger businesses with much shinier premises (who may employ salespersons with a passing interest in skiing alongside bikes or backpacking or whatever).

But it's also clear that they aren't strictly isolated incidents - the OP had issues with 3/3 products, now he might be particularly sensitive to things. What can the great stores like yours do to improve things for everyone?

In the time I was there regularly, I think I saw one customer with a true bar on sales floor. Also one with a scale. I took no personal offense to either, but I wasn't going to argue real vs. published weight discrepancies. I'm not a gram counter, as I only really care how a ski skis. There's a true bar at the Montana that's used and used a lot.

So what do great stores do to improve things for everyone? By providing great service and product, they get people to shop there. They're having a record sales season this year. Some businesses succeed, others fail. Can't really do much more than that.
 
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lisamamot

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In what snow conditions does the tune really matter? What about skiing style? Most of the recreational skiers I know are skiing on the bases, not the edges,
What if the bases are totally off? I demoed a Rossignol Temptation 88 (?) years ago and couldn’t even turn coming off the lift; they felt railed. After I made it down, I handed them back to the rep and told him he had an issue. He insisted they had just been tuned. While that may be true, he still had an issue. He clearly assumed it was me.

It matters if your ski is totally railed and therefore you are locked into uncontrollable turns or significantly base high (concave) in which case you struggle to find an edge.
Yup. Years ago my daughter outgrew her 2013 Dynastar Exclusive Legend Eden 165 which she loved. We found the 172 on eBay (new in wrapper) and mounted them up without checking the tune. She then didn’t ski for the next several years due to soccer injuries, so last season I decided to take them for a spin and I couldn’t get them to bite at all. Brought them to the very reputable SkiMD in MA and his immediate reaction was no one would be able to get them to bite; the base edge was insanely off. My daughter has skied them post SkiMD factory fresh and gave a great report. I need to take a run on them now for comparison.

Honestly, coming up on 50 years skiing maybe 30+ pairs of skis. I've NEVER clicked in to anything that was sooo unskiable that 3 minutes with a gummy stone couldn't at least make them fun enough for the day until I got them on a bench to really tune them. I guess something really detuned like beyond a 1.5 base bevel would be pretty dangerous on a cold icy day.. but other than that.. just meh, let's tune it up a little better.
You are fortunate.
 
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