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Base structure for park riding

TooNice

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Looks like my semi-local shop has a Wintersteiger Jupiter.

I was initially sceptical over the idea of a fully automated tuning device, but Philpug's review has convinced me that this is legit.

My primary interest is the structuring. I still having about two months left in my season, and I tend to spend most of the slushy spring hitting the park which includes a pretty big jump.

Getting to the park also involve crossing some pretty flat areas. I am trying a bunch of things to make things in my favour (within my budget), including waxing often, spring/graphite wax, Zardoz.. etc. it helps, but I'd like to give structure a go.

Since most of my park riding is during spring, perhaps a coarser structure is appropriate. However, I do note that I do go on boxes and rails, so I am sure if certain structure could have some undesirable impact.

And most importantly, while it is the sticky spring slush that worries me, I do note that the kicker, and the run leading to do get salted so there are instances where it is sticky then icy, then sticky etc.

So I need a structure that is still versatile enough to handle condition that -isn't- sticky slush even though that is the main reason I would like a structure.

What do you all think would be a decent shape/depth for this purpose?

Thanks.
 

Jacques

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Looks like my semi-local shop has a Wintersteiger Jupiter.

I was initially sceptical over the idea of a fully automated tuning device, but Philpug's review has convinced me that this is legit.

My primary interest is the structuring. I still having about two months left in my season, and I tend to spend most of the slushy spring hitting the park which includes a pretty big jump.

Getting to the park also involve crossing some pretty flat areas. I am trying a bunch of things to make things in my favour (within my budget), including waxing often, spring/graphite wax, Zardoz.. etc. it helps, but I'd like to give structure a go.

Since most of my park riding is during spring, perhaps a coarser structure is appropriate. However, I do note that I do go on boxes and rails, so I am sure if certain structure could have some undesirable impact.

And most importantly, while it is the sticky spring slush that worries me, I do note that the kicker, and the run leading to do get salted so there are instances where it is sticky then icy, then sticky etc.

So I need a structure that is still versatile enough to handle condition that -isn't- sticky slush even though that is the main reason I would like a structure.

What do you all think would be a decent shape/depth for this purpose?

Thanks.
Even with a structured base, and the best waxes, one will not overcome the stickies in places. It won't affect riding rails or boxes negatively.
When the snow gets dirty even though it's warm, a harder wax will be in order. Graphite is good, but a fluorinated wax will help keep the bases clean a bit better.
Put on a structure the shop recommends for the conditions.
After that, you need to do a long base bevel for the riding the steel. That should be done when the ski is new, so if you already hardened the edges from rails, it might be next to impossible to do this. A machine can't do this.

Here is how it's done. See comments on YouTube.
 

Chenzo

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I’ve done/do “park tunes” for pro level park skiers. What I find works well for slopestyle is -

All condition grind, light grind once every 5 days or so. Not grinding flat, just a handful of passes. Absolutely do not get a coarse spring grind. Cross hatch (cross linear) pattern works well, but even just a linear pattern will suffice.

On camber skis - sharpen/deburr base and side edge. Then detune underfoot aggressively, as well detune 1 or 2 cm from contact point tip and tail. The reason for edge tuning is to remove the burrs and smooth out edge damage from park features. This will help with speed as well.
Cheers
 

cantunamunch

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Since most of my park riding is during spring, perhaps a coarser structure is appropriate. However, I do note that I do go on boxes and rails, so I am sure if certain structure could have some undesirable impact.

And most importantly, while it is the sticky spring slush that worries me, I do note that the kicker, and the run leading to do get salted so there are instances where it is sticky then icy, then sticky etc.

^Consider polishing the base in between structure jobs with grey Fibertex pad and after waxing and brushing with white. Also, shuffle the feet when stopped.
 

jt10000

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^Consider polishing the base in between structure jobs with grey Fibertex pad and after waxing and brushing with white. Also, shuffle the feet when stopped.
Adding that spring snow makes skis slow for too reasons: free moisture and dirt. It's really important to not let dirt build up over time.

People just using quick paste/liquid waxes repeatedly without regular cleaning (in the form of serious brushing or hot waxing/scraping or liquid cleaners or some combination of them) will have slower skis.
 
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TooNice

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I’ve done/do “park tunes” for pro level park skiers. What I find works well for slopestyle is -

All condition grind, light grind once every 5 days or so. Not grinding flat, just a handful of passes. Absolutely do not get a coarse spring grind. Cross hatch (cross linear) pattern works well, but even just a linear pattern will suffice.

On camber skis - sharpen/deburr base and side edge. Then detune underfoot aggressively, as well detune 1 or 2 cm from contact point tip and tail. The reason for edge tuning is to remove the burrs and smooth out edge damage from park features. This will help with speed as well.
Cheers
I will make note of not going for a coarse spring grind. Cross hatch also sounds quite good to me, I guess there is no need to do anything too exotic there (I am also guessing the studies on effectiveness of various pattern remains limited).

I am not pro and definitely can't afford frequent tuning. If I am going to only do this once, should I get a flat grind?

The shop I have to have a couple of options: https://www.xraeb.co.jp/xraebsport/tuneup (sorry it is in Japanese).

Basically for 6600 yen, they offer a "quick" stone grind and a linear pattern.
At 8800/11000 yen (ski/snowboard), they offer a "standard" stone grind, with what I am guess some kind of cross pattern?
At 12700 yen, they do a "flat" stone grind, and there is a choice of patterns.

To be honest, I am not sure if darker colour implies deeper groove I guess I will ask that to the shop.

Assuming I keep the pattern simple, the question is then whether to grind flat. Since it is one machinery doing the whole thing, I wonder what is the difference between "Quick", "Standard" and "Flat". I will ask, but assuming I can't regularly base grind, should I just go flat?
 
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TooNice

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Absolutely do not get a coarse spring grind. Cross hatch (cross linear) pattern works well, but even just a linear pattern will suffice.
Ignoring my previous post, I would just like to add a quick question. How coarse is too coarse?

I have the option of 0.03mm, 0.04mm and 0.05mm. I am told that 0.04mm is their most all arounded option, and 0.05mm is their spring snow grind.

The recomendation I got is to stick with 0.04mm. Does that sound right to you?
 

cantunamunch

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I think you have some decimal points off in your post. 0.03mm is almost 850 grooves per inch. 0.05mm is 508 grooves per inch.

85 grooves, 63 grooves and 50 grooves per inch is a lot more believable.

The structure @Doug Briggs posted here is about 35 grooves per inch - 0.7mm - and would be too coarse for you:





Don't forget that coarser structure makes a ski more directional. Which is a BAD thing for a park ski.
 
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TooNice

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I think you have some decimal points off in your post. 0.03mm is almost 850 grooves per inch. 0.05mm is 508 grooves per inch.

85 grooves, 63 grooves and 50 grooves per inch is a lot more believable.

The structure @Doug Briggs posted here is about 35 grooves per inch - 0.7mm - and would be too coarse for you:





Don't forget that coarser structure makes a ski more directional. Which is a BAD thing for a park ski.
Thanks for the reply. I think I used the wrong term. Does the depth of the structure vary, and would this be measured in the 0.0Xmm range? And if so, is there an appreciable difference between 0.03mm and 0.05mm?
 

jt10000

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would this be measured in the 0.0Xmm range?
Hundredths of a millimeter? Without knowing about this specifically in terms of skis, I doubt it anyway simply because that is so so small. But happy to be better informed.
 
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cantunamunch

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Just to give you an idea, this is a nice all-round midwinter structure with 0.3 mm grooves. 0.5mm mechanical pencil for reference.

IMG_20230412_103140.jpg



IMO this structure is too fine to be of benefit to anyone in any spring snow anywhere.

You might think this doesn't answer your question about structure depth, , but it sort of does.
That ski had to have 4 wipedowns with lint-free towels just to not show dust.- and you can still see some in the foreground, in the grooves. At a hypothetical 0.03mm groove depth those would be filled - or completely occluded- by dust.
 
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TooNice

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Just an update. I confirmed with the shop, and the depth is indeed in the 0.03mm to 0.05mm range. They are using a Jupiter so I guess it is one of the pre-set.

Based on everything that has been said, it does sound very shallow, perhaps they intentionally kept the option conservative avoid changing the ride too much.

Given that, I thought it would be safe to ask their 0.05mm option which they describe it as suitable for wet snow. The layout of the resort I ride during late spring requires navigating a lot of flats to reach the park, being able to go fast in a straight line would actually make my day more enjoyable. I am not doing anything extreme that requires so much fine tuning that the structure will really matter (I hope!). On a side note, I decided to try a wave structure. The ski technician said that it prioritise a bit more on straight line performance than the cross pattern, but would still work well for switch and doesn't completely sacrifice turns. On paper I think the cross pattern make more sense for freestyle, but lately I keep thinking that I need for speed going straight, so that's that. And I admit, I kind of like the look of the pattern.

Won't really find out how it perform before next season as the tuning will only be completed a week before the end of the season and I don't really want to use it on whatever is left of the snow (besides I want to do a few wax cycles) but looking forward to it :)
 

Andy Mink

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Here is the traditional park ski base structure. A little shallow, a little deep. All conditions grind. Also, note the edge bevel and custom "wave" for easy release.
jlte9km1rjq81.jpg
 

jt10000

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Just an update. I confirmed with the shop, and the depth is indeed in the 0.03mm to 0.05mm range. They are using a Jupiter so I guess it is one of the pre-set.
I can believe that depth might be in that range. I cannot believe they have control within that range for different performance.
 

cantunamunch

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I can believe that depth might be in that range. I cannot believe they have control within that range for different performance.

Exactly. We're talking 50 microns and 30 microns. That's 320 grit sandpaper and 600 grit sandpaper. Are they talking stone grits?

Well, post pics when done, please.

#eithermarketingorwilllearnsomethingnew
 

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