Nothing gets past you Tony...
I also have plates on the Stockli Globes, the O Twos, and the Rotors, but only the O Twos are still skied regularly. Most folks don't have the these "lowly" Stocklis on their radar, so I don't post much about them.
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Comparison Review Battle of the Premium 80mm Skis: A Segment of Glorious Skis
Nothing gets past you Tony...
I also have plates on the Stockli Globes, the O Twos, and the Rotors, but only the O Twos are still skied regularly. Most folks don't have the these "lowly" Stocklis on their radar, so I don't post much about them.
Bindings and plates or no plates on Lasers (esp. AX) has been covered thoroughly previously, in detail.
Some like plates, some prefer no plates. Some prefer more race-derived bindings or race bindings, some prefer more all mountain bindings (with a more flexible toe).
There are pros and cons with each setup. Myself, I prefer at least a greater stack height, whether either type of setup is used.
For example, an approximately 23mm stack height demo binding, the normal Attack13, with a 10 mm plate beneath it. (Or just something like an Attack13 AT demo binding, which has an approx. 33 mm stack height on its own.)
My two AXes (175, 183) have a Head PRD (more directional, race-derived, no extra plate) and a tall Tyrolia Attack13 AT demo binding (tall but more all mountain) on them. My Laser GSs have full on Head FreeFlex16 with race plate. My three SR XXLs (the previous version of the AX, with almost the same shape and dimensions) also have a mixture of the race-derived and more all mountaiin bindings, with the same sort of results. I prefer the more all mountain setup with extra stack height for bumps and off piste, for example (more versatile and playful), and find it equal on groomers to a more race-derived setup, though different as described.
There is a definite, obvious difference in feel to these skis with and without plates and with and without race bindings. ( @Dougb, you would be able to feel this easily. ) The race bindings/plates produce a more directional, driving style/race style feel. The demo bindings, if they have a flexible, all mountain toe instead of a more rigid race toe, feel distinctly more playful - more easily turny. If the particular demo binding has a tall stack height, as the Attack13 AT does (the equivalent of a normal Attack13 binding plus a 10 mm plate), then one gets the leverage/authority/power of that height over the edges plus a definite feeling of playfulness/greater flexibility edge to edge (from the more flexible, playful toe). Honest.
ON the other hand, as for @Dougb, I personally can't tell an appreciable difference in feel between a demo binding and the comparable non-demo binding, IF the stack heights of the two bindings, and the toes, are the same. (Some people may, but for the life of me, with a properly working demo binding, I cannot: again, unless there is a difference in stack height.)
Some like plates, some prefer no plates. Some prefer more race-derived bindings or race bindings, some prefer more all mountain bindings (with a more flexible toe).
There are pros and cons with each setup. Myself, I prefer at least a greater stack height, whether either type of setup is used.
For example, an approximately 23mm stack height demo binding, the normal Attack13, with a 10 mm plate beneath it. (Or just something like an Attack13 AT demo binding, which has an approx. 33 mm stack height on its own.)
My two AXes (175, 183) have a Head PRD (more directional, race-derived, no extra plate) and a tall Tyrolia Attack13 AT demo binding (tall but more all mountain) on them. My Laser GSs have full on Head FreeFlex16 with race plate. My three SR XXLs (the previous version of the AX, with almost the same shape and dimensions) also have a mixture of the race-derived and more all mountaiin bindings, with the same sort of results. I prefer the more all mountain setup with extra stack height for bumps and off piste, for example (more versatile and playful), and find it equal on groomers to a more race-derived setup, though different as described.
There is a definite, obvious difference in feel to these skis with and without plates and with and without race bindings. ( @Dougb, you would be able to feel this easily. ) The race bindings/plates produce a more directional, driving style/race style feel. The demo bindings, if they have a flexible, all mountain toe instead of a more rigid race toe, feel distinctly more playful - more easily turny. If the particular demo binding has a tall stack height, as the Attack13 AT does (the equivalent of a normal Attack13 binding plus a 10 mm plate), then one gets the leverage/authority/power of that height over the edges plus a definite feeling of playfulness/greater flexibility edge to edge (from the more flexible, playful toe). Honest.
ON the other hand, as for @Dougb, I personally can't tell an appreciable difference in feel between a demo binding and the comparable non-demo binding, IF the stack heights of the two bindings, and the toes, are the same. (Some people may, but for the life of me, with a properly working demo binding, I cannot: again, unless there is a difference in stack height.)
After a year and change skiing the 182 length, I have to say that it does not ski long for someone of my height. It is very light, quick and maneuverable. What a fun ski! And I would double down on recommending the long length for people over six feet tall. To be honest, I would buy it slightly longer, if they offered it. Smaller skiers might not be able to imagine how it plays out at that length for taller people, but the stability and power of this ski is part of what makes it so fun. And yet, it's really playful and easy to flick around, too. Someone mentioned that at that length you give up maneuverability and get little in return. I really disagree. You get a lot, and what you get is largely what makes this ski so great for me. I wouldn't presume to tell someone shorter what length would be best for them, because I imagine the physical dynamics play out differently for different people. But for a tall person, I'm convinced the sweet spot is at the longer length.
This is my second season on the 183cm AX. I am 6'4" so the 175 cm length would be too short for me. Although if I wanted it to behave like a slalom ski, it would be the length to choose. I have found moving the bindings forward on my 183 can change the ski from a GS turner to almost a slalom turner. That would be going from the factory line (GS) to +4 cm (nearing slalom turn radius). I own a slalom ski, and its a 175 cm Rosi with a 14 meter radius. (longest SL ski I could find).
I agree with @DavidLayton in that the 182-3 length fits a taller person and a person who likes longer ski lengths. You have to know your preferences in a carving ski. I will also add, my particular 183 AX was owned by two other Pugski posters and received a somewhat undeserved bad rap. When I first got it, the base bevel and side bevel was not done properly up near the tip. The previous owners were correct the ski was a bear to turn and had a heavy feeling tip. Once I corrected the tune near the tip, the ski drastically changed. The heavy tip feeling went away, and the tip started to engage and make the ski carve a much smaller radius turn. Bad tunes can really ruin how a ski behaves. A lot of bad reviews may just be bad tunes on the ski being undetected.
I agree with @DavidLayton in that the 182-3 length fits a taller person and a person who likes longer ski lengths. You have to know your preferences in a carving ski. I will also add, my particular 183 AX was owned by two other Pugski posters and received a somewhat undeserved bad rap. When I first got it, the base bevel and side bevel was not done properly up near the tip. The previous owners were correct the ski was a bear to turn and had a heavy feeling tip. Once I corrected the tune near the tip, the ski drastically changed. The heavy tip feeling went away, and the tip started to engage and make the ski carve a much smaller radius turn. Bad tunes can really ruin how a ski behaves. A lot of bad reviews may just be bad tunes on the ski being undetected.
Andy Mink
Everyone loves spring skiing but not in January
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QFT. There are skis you KNOW are better than they ski and many times it's the tune, structure, or lack thereof.
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Interesting it improved it so much. I’ve known people who sold a used Kastle MX for tune reasons. They didn’t think they could turn it.
Yeah it was a bear. Bottom of Ovation at Killington- I still hurt thinking about turning it.
The lower pitch trails with the new wet powder were fun.
76-78mm Wide “All-Mountain” Carver Comparison
In honor of receiving my Blossom White Out/Sideral Special Edition (176cm/77mm/15m) with Vist Speedlock Pro Light plate and VM412 binding, I decided to spend the day testing similar width skis in a side by side direct comparison. Testing at the resort that used to be Squaw began as soon as the chairlifts spun-up, giving a couple of hours of hard crusty groomers, followed by a gradually softening to slushy surface, as well as some big moguls. Runs included Squaw Creek, Red Dog, KT22.
The evaluation format consisted of skiing the Blossom down a run followed by one of the other skis on the same run; then the Blossom again, followed by another challenger, etc….
In addition to the Blossom, the other skis included the Head Rebel e.Rally (177cm/78mm/15m), Liberty V76 (179cm/76mm/15m), Nordica Spitfire 76 (180/76mm/17m), Rossignol Hero Elite Plus Ti (181cm/78mm/15m), and Stockli AX (175cm/78mm/16m). Note that all the skis were tuned 1/3 by the same capable shop.
I was interested to see which was the best carver (grip, rebound, speed limit), which offered widest latitude and ability to ski anywhere on the Mountain, which was best in bumps, and finally which had the largest sweet spot and best disposition for skiing a variety of speeds and turn shapes without complaining.
Below is what I subjectively noted—obviously biased by my age, condition, and skiing style:
Ripping Carver: Rossi, then Nordica
Versatility Champ: Stockli, then Blossom
Mogul Slaying: Head, then Blossom
Friendly like a Labrador (ex. for a day with family and mixed ability friends): Liberty, then Blossom
In honor of receiving my Blossom White Out/Sideral Special Edition (176cm/77mm/15m) with Vist Speedlock Pro Light plate and VM412 binding, I decided to spend the day testing similar width skis in a side by side direct comparison. Testing at the resort that used to be Squaw began as soon as the chairlifts spun-up, giving a couple of hours of hard crusty groomers, followed by a gradually softening to slushy surface, as well as some big moguls. Runs included Squaw Creek, Red Dog, KT22.
The evaluation format consisted of skiing the Blossom down a run followed by one of the other skis on the same run; then the Blossom again, followed by another challenger, etc….
In addition to the Blossom, the other skis included the Head Rebel e.Rally (177cm/78mm/15m), Liberty V76 (179cm/76mm/15m), Nordica Spitfire 76 (180/76mm/17m), Rossignol Hero Elite Plus Ti (181cm/78mm/15m), and Stockli AX (175cm/78mm/16m). Note that all the skis were tuned 1/3 by the same capable shop.
I was interested to see which was the best carver (grip, rebound, speed limit), which offered widest latitude and ability to ski anywhere on the Mountain, which was best in bumps, and finally which had the largest sweet spot and best disposition for skiing a variety of speeds and turn shapes without complaining.
Below is what I subjectively noted—obviously biased by my age, condition, and skiing style:
Ripping Carver: Rossi, then Nordica
Versatility Champ: Stockli, then Blossom
Mogul Slaying: Head, then Blossom
Friendly like a Labrador (ex. for a day with family and mixed ability friends): Liberty, then Blossom
Very useful. Results in the carver and moguls categories not quite what I'd have guessed, but that's sort of the point of testing.
6' 210 lbs; recently got back into Masters Racing after a 35 year break from alpine competition (raced straight skis back in High School and College).
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Nice write up. What I’m really wondering is how you did it logistically: 6 pairs of skis, changing skis after every run, 3 different lifts. Did you have a team of ski sherpas helping you out?
"What I’m really wondering is how you did it logistically: 6 pairs of skis, changing skis after every run, 3 different lifts. Did you have a team of ski sherpas helping you out?"
No sherpas--left all the skis at the coaching shack right above Red Dog Chair and near KT22 chair. Take Red Dog chair up, ski down Squaw Creek; take Squaw Creek Chair up and ski down Red Dog to KT22 chair; take KT22 chair up and ski back down KT22 to the coaching shack and switch skis; repeat ad nauseam... Easy as could be.
No sherpas--left all the skis at the coaching shack right above Red Dog Chair and near KT22 chair. Take Red Dog chair up, ski down Squaw Creek; take Squaw Creek Chair up and ski down Red Dog to KT22 chair; take KT22 chair up and ski back down KT22 to the coaching shack and switch skis; repeat ad nauseam... Easy as could be.
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Wondering... If everyone here worried about Race Room and World Cup Performance and the associated tuning (or lack thereof) are world-class or world-cup athletes? The theme here is that one of these skis kicks your butt and bucks you off, it automatically must be the fault of crappy tune/shop/company where you purchased them. I see so many "awesome", technical skiers ripping down the pistes as I'm riding up the lift. If a skier is experiencing difficulty, it's gotta be someone's fault, because it is never the lack of skier talent/skill. I am also humbled by the number of ski tuning experts here on this forum. Apparently those of us in the industry that have tuned literally thousands of pairs of skis, don't have a clue and automatically do slap-dash work. Also, the ski manufacturers are turning out terrible products using substandard materials and designs. You know, everyone in the industry is getting filthy rich and spend all their time snorting cocaine off of strippers behinds with $100 bills.... Also, gotta love the hostile/negative attitudes by skiers. I thought that skiing was a "fun" pastime and everyone out there was there to have fun. But, apparently folks on this forum have forgotten this. Good luck Phil and Tricia dealing with this bunch...
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Well if want an example of the "industry" attitude that talks down to people like they are not worthy here it s in a nutshell.
Of course we're all out to have fun. Even those obsessed with gate times or getting through the next tech exam are after fun in their own way.
But to me that means not having to do craploads of admin and trudging around to get skis in a fit state to ski I don't have massively exacting standards - one look at the base "structure"* of my most often skied pair of skis would tell you - but I can still tell you when the edges could do with a sharpen or when a ski is base or edge high or the mount point is iffy for me.
As said in another thread by someone else stop treating us like we're all idiots......I've had almost the exact defensive BS- "well we have Olympians on this product and they love it so maybe its you" when I've tried to tell a demo rep that there is something off with a particular pair of skis.
* Mainly imparted by the finest rocks in the Chamoix valley under previous ownership.
Bonus pop quiz - who on this very site said this?
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Sure you can use, "You're not a sponsored FIS athelete or an Olympian, so these skis will hand you your ass." on 99.99 % (see Note 1) of skiers, since only 0.01 or fewer skiers are sponsored FIS athletes or Olympians. However, if you try that argument on me, I will lose all respect for your knowledge about skis and skiing ability.
Note 1: 90% of all statistics are made up on the spot.
Note 1: 90% of all statistics are made up on the spot.
Let’s not clobber this fantastic thread. I’m a bit surprised by the result. I’m under the impression that Rally (at least the I-series) is easier to ski than V76. I’m also surprised by the length selection, given Doc has at least 40# on me and obviously stronger skier. @DocGKR , you don’t feel you are overpowering them? I have I-magnum (170) and V76 (172), and I can overpower them if I try harder.
Phew. I've passed that hot potato on now.
I find the 179cm V76, like the Blossom, is perhaps a bit easier to ski than either 177cm Rally, but they are close. Also keep in mind the longest Rally is the 177cm. The two most friendly and approachable skis of the bunch--the V76 and Blossom are fantastic for many folks, including improving intermediates and relaxed advanced skiers, but neither have as much energy, edge hold, and aplomb as I prefer.
By far my favorite ski of this bunch is the 181cm Rossi Hero Elite Plus Ti (the 174 is also OK, but note that the shorter versions of this ski don't work as well, as the turn radius gets too small); just incredibly quick, versatile, smooth, lively, energetic, and capable. As always YMMV....
By far my favorite ski of this bunch is the 181cm Rossi Hero Elite Plus Ti (the 174 is also OK, but note that the shorter versions of this ski don't work as well, as the turn radius gets too small); just incredibly quick, versatile, smooth, lively, energetic, and capable. As always YMMV....
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Interestingly, this is the common feedback I get from others, that Rossi Hero Elite tend to have more "energy", that includes ST/LT/MT.
This post makes me question my choice of the 175 AX. haha
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