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BBQ and outdoor cooking

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JeffB

JeffB

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What’s that?
Does one want to cook steaks at 900deg ?
I don’t see why not. Any egg or similar cooker, properly set up, will achieve at least 750-800 degrees at the grate. That will do a 1.5 inch ribeye to mid-rare at 2min per side, max, assuming you close the dome on your cooks, which I do. There are various techniques, ie reverse sear, vents closed after flipping, etc., that can affect this, but in general 60-90 sec per side per inch is the rule for mid-rare. So … in a 950-1000 degree pizza oven with pre-heated cast iron, the concept should be the same, but the time will be even shorter. And odds are, the sear will be better. Many commercial steak houses prepare their fare at those temps. My failing memory aside, I think Ruth’s Chris even advertised 1000 degrees at one point some years ago.

The idea is to as instantly as possible sear the outside to seal in moisture, and then pull it before it’s overdone in the middle. Most steaks actually finish while resting on the cutting board. The opposite is true of the sous vide method, with which it is very easy to achieve perfect steaks with just a 1 minute per side sear in a cast iron or carbon steel skillet at the end. I’ve really enjoyed playing with the sous vide since Christmas - this is just another way to skin the cat. I’m excited to see if it works.
 

James

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don’t see why not. Any egg or similar cooker, properly set up, will achieve at least 750-800 degrees at the grate. That will do a 1.5 inch ribeye to mid-rare at 2min per side, max, assuming you close the dome on your cooks, which I do.
So what about the top side? It’s essentially in a 600+ deg oven. I’ve wondered why it doesn’t it dry it out?
 

Uncle-A

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This flank, posted earlier in the thread, was 800 degrees, 90 seconds per side. My personal view is that is the best way to do it, but people are free to disagree of course. I’ve never had any problems with very high temps and very short cook times.
View attachment 136355
Yup, I do a 90 second per side thin steak that has been marinated for about an hour. No disagreement here, lots of goodness for the taste buds.:)
 
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JeffB

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So what about the top side? It’s essentially in a 600+ deg oven. I’ve wondered why it doesn’t it dry it out?
There is no top side because you will flip it. There’s a first side and a second side. Over open flame, like in an egg, both sides will see the flame. If you cook closed dome, the second side is about 10-15 seconds less. All you’re really trying to do is create a very fast sear and it’s the crispy sear that seals in all the moisture. If you leave it too long, that deliciousness cooks out of course. But if you get it right, you end up with the flank I posted above. Better under than over because under can be fixed. I actually believe that super hot is much easier than the 450-550 regular grill because there is less time the meat is over the heat and, although paradoxical, there is more margin for error. Aged meat without an oil based marinade is not going to burn black even at 800 degrees at 90-120 seconds. It will sear.

The pizza oven with cast iron should, at least in theory, follow the same principles. Conceptually, it’s almost the reverse of doing a cast iron sear on the range and then finishing in the oven. Maybe not the reverse, but that cook method in simultaneous fashion. And it’s certainly true that many a tasty steak has been prepared with a very high temp cast iron sear on the range and then placed in a 400 degree preheated oven for 5 min to finish.
 

Scruffy

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New toy to go with the 3 eggs and plancha - pizza oven. Just got it, so I’m not good with it yet, but it’s pretty cool. And fun to play with.

edited to add that I got the optional cast iron accessory for very high temp work on steaks. Oven goes well over 1000 degrees easily. Haven’t tried it yet, but plan on it next week. Have to season the iron first.
View attachment 136300
How apropos; I just bought myself a woodfired pizza oven. I had looked at the Ooni ovens and almost pulled the trigger on one of those for the ease of propane. I had always wanted to build my own brick wood fired outdoor pizza oven, but never committed to it due to too many other projects of more importance, and also the thought that I'd spend an hour building the fire and heating up the oven for a 3-6 minute cook always made the cost benefit equation seem lopsided. Anyway, while researching that very oven you have, I came across a wood fired oven that heats to 900 ( or above ) within 20 minutes--and, I didn't have to build it.

1624404935453.png

First bake!
1624404997009.png

Yummy: shiitakes, caramelized onions, and sausage:
1624405168138.png
 

Uncle-A

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There is no top side because you will flip it. There’s a first side and a second side. Over open flame, like in an egg, both sides will see the flame. If you cook closed dome, the second side is about 10-15 seconds less. All you’re really trying to do is create a very fast sear and it’s the crispy sear that seals in all the moisture. If you leave it too long, that deliciousness cooks out of course. But if you get it right, you end up with the flank I posted above. Better under than over because under can be fixed. I actually believe that super hot is much easier than the 450-550 regular grill because there is less time the meat is over the heat and, although paradoxical, there is more margin for error. Aged meat without an oil based marinade is not going to burn black even at 800 degrees at 90-120 seconds. It will sear.

The pizza oven with cast iron should, at least in theory, follow the same principles. Conceptually, it’s almost the reverse of doing a cast iron sear on the range and then finishing in the oven. Maybe not the reverse, but that cook method in simultaneous fashion. And it’s certainly true that many a tasty steak has been prepared with a very high temp cast iron sear on the range and then placed in a 400 degree preheated oven for 5 min to finish.
Isn't there something called Pittsburgh style of cooking a steak that you just sear the outside very hot and quick to keep the juice's inside?
 

KingGrump

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BBR = Burned Beyond Recognition?

Yup. Katchup on the side please. :ogbiggrin:

So what about the top side? It’s essentially in a 600+ deg oven. I’ve wondered why it doesn’t it dry it out?

The high temp sears and seal the outside of the steak preventing the moisture from escaping. With the steak at room temp, the actual cooking time is really short. Thermal mass of the grill plays a big part in it also. If the temp drops too much, too fast then the steak will just steam. That's why I usually do not want to dump a ton of meat on the grill at the same time. The temp will just drop through the floor.

Most steak houses use infrared broilers. Takes about 15 minute to warm up. It goes on in the morning and doesn't get turned off until closing time. High temp and lots of thermal mass.
 
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JeffB

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Isn't there something called Pittsburgh style of cooking a steak that you just sear the outside very hot and quick to keep the juice's inside?
I think that’s right, but my understanding is Pittsburgh implies butter or some other oil and generally results in an outside crust that most people would consider burned. I’ve never been able to do it in and egg - the burn is distasteful to me. Perhaps it would work in cast iron, but I haven’t tried it. The smoke point of butter, in particular is way too low. There is no food oil of any kind I’m aware of that can withstand heat above 580ish without smoking, and that causes burns and bad flavor. I believe avocado or maybe grape seed oil has the highest smoke point and it’s still below 600.
 

James

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I get the sear part. But while the botom is searing, the top is in hot air.

Do people not use pepper before going on the high temp?

The searing theory of juice retention is a myth.

 

KingGrump

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I am not sure burn equals bad flavor when grilling. We are trying to "burn" the meat after all.
I like to think does the meat taste better with or without the oil added. In most cases, I like the one with a bit of oil.
I don't think all oils would work well. I like EVOO. Good flavor. Butter is definitely out due to the milk solid burning. Clarified butter may OK. Never think of trying it.

We did a bit of grilling at Chez Ziggy this spring. Dumped eight pieces of 1-1/2" prime strip on the weber. Salt, pepper & EVOO. 2x 1.5 minute per side. Came out a perfect medium rare on the rare side. No burn taste. That grill was hot. People were hungry. That meat disappeared quick.
Big shout out to @Lady_Salina and @Old boot for picking up the tab for the prime strip and chocolate cake. :golfclap: Thank you.
 
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JeffB

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I am not sure burn equals bad flavor when grilling. We are trying to "burn" the meat after all.
I like to think does the meat taste better with or without the oil added. In most cases, I like the one with a bit of oil.
I don't think all oils would work well. I like EVOO. Good flavor. Butter is definitely out due to the milk solid burning. Clarified butter may OK. Never think of trying it.

We did a bit of grilling at Chez Ziggy this spring. Dumped eight pieces of 1-1/2" prime strip on the weber. Salt, pepper & EVOO. 2x 1.5 minute per side. Came out a perfect medium rare on the rare side. No burn taste. That grill was hot. People were hungry. That meat disappeared quick.
Big shout out to @Lady_Salina and @Old boot for picking up the tab for the prime strip and chocolate cake. :golfclap: Thank you.
Burn perhaps is an inaccurate word. Obviously the grill lines we like to see are technically a burn, a brand. What I was trying to describe maybe is more aptly called a severe char. The outer layer is hard and crispy. It flakes. It tastes like something that might be found on the bottom of the oven. It is not, in my estimation, edible, and imparts a lingering, unpleasant aftertaste. Perhaps there is a continuum from sear/burn to char/destroy. As the saying goes, like pornography, you know it when you see it. I’ve never been able to use butter or oil based marinades (left on, as opposed to dried off before cooking) over open flame without being on the wrong end of the continuum.
 
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JeffB

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I get the sear part. But while the botom is searing, the top is in hot air.

Do people not use pepper before going on the high temp?

The searing theory of juice retention is a myth.

That’s interesting. I’ll give it some thought. I’m not a food scientist or even an empiricist of any kind or description. All I can comment upon is what has worked for me over many hundreds, thousands I guess at this point, attempts at various things.

Maybe the overall point is to strive for proper moisture/flavorful juice management depending upon cook method. There are many ways to achieve this and I suppose it’s reasonable to reach certain conclusions based on results, but have a situation where correlation and causality do not match.
 

Jwrags

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I am going to go on record here and say that I will never argue with @JeffB when it comes to cooking on a grill or its cousins. I do not know him nor have I ever tasted his food but it looks amazing. Maybe he just pulls photos from the internet:ogbiggrin:
 
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JeffB

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Is having a quiver of eggs as confusing as having a quiver of skis when you're unsure of the days conditions? Or, do you fire them all up at the same time? I need to figure out how to justify more eggs.
The one in the middle is the original mini. It’s for tailgating. I also still coach travel baseball, so I will take it to some tourneys and cook between games. Otherwise, the large is on the right in the table I built, and the small is on the left. I’ve never used all 3 at the same time I don’t think. Maybe once or twice, but more to do it than based on need. The mini is special purpose only - 4 burger patties or 8-10 hotdogs and it’s full.

For low and slow stuff, I always go with the large, and low/slow is my favorite these days. Boston butt and brisket mostly. I’ll do pork tenderloins or sittin’ chickens in it too.

The small is a different beast altogether. it does the best job on the very high temp steak sears, in my opinion, and I think that’s because the heat source is so much closer to the guest of honor. And with much less lump to make the fire. It heats quickly and produces outstanding results. It also functions very well as an oven - if you have a cut of meat you’re doing at a lower temp after sear, like a tri-tip, you can use the small at the same time to bake potatoes, for instance. Or do stuffed peppers. I also use it for mussels, clams, and other shellfish, including oyster roasts, if I’ve got other stuff on the large. The Lodge brand, inexpensive Dutch oven fits in it just great, and with something like that, the possibilities are endless.

The mini is a novelty and could be supplanted by the “camping” size Weber grill, which I also have. The small is my favorite, but it can never be the one and only because it can’t hold enough lump for overnight smokes. If you can only have one, the large is the ticket. There is no reason, aside from a desire to waste money on charcoal, to go bigger, unless you’re a commercial operation. But the large+small combo operating in tandem is one hell of a set-up, making the full course meal outside imminently possible.

I’m a fanatic about all main entrees and sides being ready at exact same time, and this is the way I decided to make that happen.

And then there is the plancha, slightly out of frame on the right. it’s a 20x20 stainless steel propane fired griddle, no longer manufactured as far as I know. That’s a whole ‘nuther can of worms. Search Youtube for Basque grill or plancha and you’ll see what it can do. My 2nd favorite behind the small egg. And now the pizza oven has joined the family, so I’ll have to see how that fits in to the rotation.
 
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