Benefits of thinking of turns as starting at the apex

[LiquidFeet]

Most diagrams and discussions of where turns start identify that as happening at the transition, which falls between one apex and another.

Transition is where the CoM and BoS change places, one passing over/under the other. This point falls somewhere between one apex and another. When turns are thought of as starting at transition, then some action by the skier happens there to initiate the new turn.

The size of the arrows in the image below show the center of mass crossing over the skis. It also approximates the relative sizes of the forces acting on the skis along their path. Conceiving of the turn as starting and ending at (or near) the apex would identify the turn as starting just after the force felt is at its highest. And that would mean some action by the skier happens there to initiate the new turn.

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Anyone want to discuss what circumstances on the hill make it beneficial to think of the turn as starting at or near apex instead of at transition?

I'm wondering if we can have a discussion about differences in these two conceptualizations, the intents that accompany the two concepts, and the differing actions a skier takes as a result of each. And why we sometimes choose to use one concept rather than the other.

 

[James]

It’s more continuous with apex to apex, ‘S’ view. Rather than c’s welded together. It also puts the transition in the middle, so it’s not”I’m done”, then “starting now”.

Starting the turn should be part of the flow, not a discontinuity. It’s how you can make a “do nothing” turn. When you go shopping for turns, you’re always buying ‘C’ turns.

 

[cantunamunch]

identify the turn as starting just after the force felt is at its highest. And that would mean some action by the skier happens there to initiate the new turn.

..........................................
Anyone want to discuss what circumstances on the hill make it beneficial to think of the turn as starting at or near apex instead of at transition?

I'm wondering if we can have a discussion about differences in these two conceptualizations, the intents that accompany the two concepts, and the differing actions a skier takes as a result of each. And why we sometimes choose to use one concept rather than the other.

Eh, wot? How do I use this?

First, even without gravity, the apex isn't the point of highest force unless the apex is the zone of smallest turn radius.

Second, once we add gravity, the point of highest load on the legs shifts to the bottom of the C.

Third, once we add gravity, this concept requires us to shift from highest load on legs to lowest load on legs (CoM below ski path) in a significantly shorter interval than the apex-to-apex travel interval.


Not seeing the point of visualising the turn like this unless


... unless at fall line the stance leg is compressed and we're trying to gauge extension of the stance leg to skeletally support loads at the actual maximum load point.

 

[James]

Forget the force details. Has nothing to do with the concept. I confess, I didn’t read all of the op. Too complicated.
Always a bad idea to go there. The thread will now be about forces.

The ‘S’ thing is generally fall line to fall line. It’s line related, not force.

 

[Rod9301]

Doesn't make any sense to start the turn at apex.

In transition, you start a turn to the left for example and you're in the left foot till the next transition. Nothing changes between transitions

 

[Seldomski]

Start of the turn by pointing skis downhill. Kinda like the idea and shifting the "I'm done with that turn" location to somewhere with urgency to start the next.

Not sure how you convince beginner of this framework. It's nice to start with skis across hill. Maximum safety.

 

[LiquidFeet]

Clarification:
Thinking of a turn as S-shaped means you release immediately after the fall line, rather than allowing the forces to continue to build up until the bottom of the turn then releasing.

The release, whenever it happens, will lessen the force(s).

 

[cantunamunch]

Clarification:
Thinking of a turn as S-shaped means you release immediately after the fall line,

What am I gripping at the fall line that I'm starting to release just after?

rather than allowing the forces to continue to build up until the bottom of the turn then releasing.

The release, whenever it happens, will lessen the force(s).

I agree with @James on this - let's not do forces. The language simply isn't suited to it.

 

[LiquidFeet]

What am I gripping at the fall line that I'm starting to release just after?





I agree with @James on this - let's not do forces. The language simply isn't suited to it.

Your skis are gripping the snow .
If there is not much grip, perhaps it's slip. I prefer grip.
If you want, ignore diagrams and the word "force."
Continue....

 

[Dave Marshak]

Thinking about apex to apex is a coach’s direction to get you thinking a little differently. Maybe you don’t think about finishing or starting at all. It doesn’t “cause “ anything at all. It’s just an experiment to disrupt you a little and maybe you change a little bit. Maybe even learn something.
That is all.

dm

 

[James]

Yeah, this is being way over complicated. Nothing changes in technique just by where you start and end the imaginary line for a turn.

 

[DebbieSue]

Starting the turn should be part of the flow…When you go shopping for turns, you’re always buying ‘C’ turns.

That does it! “C” turns are on my “do not buy” list. Only shopping for “S” turns from now on.

 

[cantunamunch]

Clarification:
Thinking of a turn as S-shaped means you release immediately after the fall line,

I will grant you that this makes it more skater-oriented.

If you wanted to relate it to a dryland exercise like a slideboard, sure, do it this way.

 

[mdf]

Yeah, this is being way over complicated. Nothing changes in technique just by where you start and end the imaginary line for a turn.

For you and me, yeah. But maybe for a stalled intermediate?

 

[Bad Bob]

How would any kind of a traverse work into this?

Don't care who you are, there are times when you aren't turning; on piste, a race course, or cruising in loose snow.

 

[cantunamunch]

How would any kind of a traverse work into this?

The center of the S is two footed by definition, no? Just need to be careful or your ʃ looks like an f?

Don't care who you are, there are times when you aren't turning; on piste, a race course,

Racers need sharp edges so ß

or cruising in loose snow.

ς - or maybe Ç in Canada?

 

[James]

That does it! “C” turns are on my “do not buy” list. Only shopping for “S” turns from now on.

Lol. I almost tagged you when I wrote that.

 

[KingGrump]

I like transitions as start of the turn. It give me time to collect my s**t together.

TBH, the weightless and time dilation sensations during the transition is the primary reason I ski.

 

[slow-line-fast]

Thinking of skiing fall-line to fall-line* can help advanced skiers be more fluid in transitions.

* (That is, from the point where my skis are in the fall line during a left turn (right footer) to the point where they are again in the fall line in the next turn (right turn, left footer).)

For intermediates it can encourage getting their skis pointing down the fall line and being patient with them there, and getting off the edges into the new turn more quickly. This is in contrast to the fear-based default of quickly pivoting skis across the fall line then having a long drawn-out slide or partial carve with the skis across the fall line. Start on mellow terrain of course.

I wouldn't call it starting the turn at the apex because I think that is too confusing, but it's probably a similar idea. Not a different technique, just a different way to think about a turn in order to encourage spending some time with skis in the fall line then getting off the edges, and discourage hanging too long onto the old turn.

(Image Ron LeMaster - Ultimate Skiing. https://s3.amazonaws.com/unode1/ass...12879993_1599713407817Ron_Le_master_cover.png)

 

[chilehed]

I can absolutely see that thinking of the turn as starting when you begin to release the edges at the point of maximum loading, and ending when you achieve maximum loading on the opposite edges, could help someone learn to make it a single fluid process.