Benefits of thinking of turns as starting at the apex

[Dave Marshak]

So you've defined yourself as uncoachable and a really really good skier, but you're offering to coach someone you haven't skied with. I skied with Mr Grump a few seasons back. If he asked for some feedback, I'd be obligated to ask several questions.... What are you working on? Why? How?, and I'd watch him ski before saying anything. If he didn't ask for feedback, none would be offered.

(Did you think of why the coach may have asked the group to feel light at apex? Did they tell you?)

Again, you are reading more into my comments than I intended. I was coachable enough to become a race coach and a trainer at 3 different ski schools. I'm not coaching anyone here but I used an example to show one part of the process I have used successfully in the past. It's an experimental approach and another experiment was to ignore whatever a coach asked me to do. I don't remember if I could do any of those drills, but I learned something about coaches and coaching, which is the whole point. Also I sometimes found it amusing, which made mandatory training less onerous.

As for as my own skiing ability, I may have been "really good" (or not) in the past, but now my comfort level is easier blacks on sunny days.

dm

 

[James]

Not that much different from driving and thinking about the apex. It’s not necessary.

One of the examiners here at Taos like to teach the pre-turn. A slight up hill swoop prior to entering the turn. Slipping the tails downhill slightly prior to start of the turn accomplishes the same intent. Works for some but not all.

And?
That’s almost support for the s. It’s just a slightly different line. A funny s.
Can’t start from a stop by swooping uphill. So the hanging c is eliminated. Call it an s.

And that’s part of the point. Low level skiers think of turns as stop/start, connecting the C‘s together. Welding, bolting, nailing, jamming, and traversing in between the handyman activity.

 

[KingGrump]

Yes! And the brutal acceleration in the turn that follows. When the snow is so close you can touch it with both hands.

Lull before the storm.
Acceleration does not have to be brutal. It's entirely up to the skier. Rather than a toggle switch that goes on/off. Think micro adjustable variable speed switch. Think power tools with the soft start feature.

 

[JESinstr]

Start of the turn by pointing skis downhill. Kinda like the idea and shifting the "I'm done with that turn" location to somewhere with urgency to start the next.

Not sure how you convince beginner of this framework. It's nice to start with skis across hill. Maximum safety.

Dunno, isnt it more put the ski on edge and leave it to them to point downhill? That’s in my observations something beginners have trouble with-no need to turn the ski,let the ski turn you.

So we are back to the age old, unresolved issue of "are you turning the ski or is the ski turning you"

If you of are in the latter camp, then Job #1 is to get the skis "out and away" on edge and manage the resulting change of direction from there. If you are in the first camp, then by the time the ski gets on edge by intentional edging movements (not simply the ski/slope relationship) then you are usually too late.

If implemented properly, beginners can easily grasp the concept of "the ski turns you"

 

[Tony Storaro]

So we are back to the age old, unresolved issue of "are you turning the ski or is the ski turning you"

If you of are in the latter camp, then Job #1 is to get the skis "out and away" on edge and manage the resulting change of direction from there. If you are in the first camp, then by the time the ski gets on edge by intentional edging movements (not simply the ski/slope relationship) then you are usually too late.

If implemented properly, beginners can easily grasp the concept of "the ski turns you"

My only objection is to “easily”. It isnt easy nor it comes naturally. The slopes are full of even intermediates who try to force their ski into turns resulting in Z turns and unnecessary dragging the ski all around the slope.
Learning to work with the sidecut and flex of the ski takes quite a long time from what I see.

 

[slow-line-fast]

I like transitions as start of the turn. It give me time to collect my s**t together.

TBH, the weightless and time dilation sensations during the transition is the primary reason I ski.

The solution to our latest not-actual-disagreement is hiding in plain sight. If we were on the hill together, we would see @KingGrump making fluid transitions. But because of the aforementioned time dilation, @KingGrump in his own inertial reference frame would have plenty of time to contemplate all the goings on, get any s**t that needs to be together together, and then comfortably enter the next turn in due time.

 

[LiquidFeet]

"Second, once we add gravity, the point of highest load on the legs shifts to the bottom of the C."

....and this is the difference between good advanced, an truly strong technically sound expert skiers. What you've described is 'normal' for most, but it's an outcome that can be made made earlier in the arc. Great skiers float in transition. The ski isn't loaded, and the tracks tell the story. Powder, piste.... doesn't matter. The ski should be starting to flatten just after apex. The sensation on more force is a result of platform angle adding grip as the CoM moves toward and over one's BoS.

Yes.
One can also upend the usual way skiers conceptualize the crossing of the two paths of CoM and BoS. I like to see that crossing happening as a result of the skier bringing the BoS back up and under the body/CoM, and this action can start a nanosecond after the fall line.

Bringing the skis back up under creates the release with all its good baggage. Getting the feet back up under the CoM involves keeping the skis edged until the crossing happens. The skier will still feel edging pressure because the snow will continue to push back on the edged skis, but the amount will be less than what was felt at the fall line.

 

[LiquidFeet]

.... @KingGrump in his own inertial reference frame would have plenty of time to contemplate all the goings on, get any s**t that needs to be together together, and then comfortably enter the next turn in due time.

And indeed he does.

 

[LiquidFeet]

One of the examiners here at Taos like to teach the pre-turn. A slight up hill swoop prior to entering the turn. Slipping the tails downhill slightly prior to start of the turn accomplishes the same intent. Works for some but not all.

One of the reasons some instructors have students slip the tails downhill before starting from a stop is that this little maneuver keeps them from being aft as they start the run.
Trade secret.

 

[James]

So we are back to the age old, unresolved issue of "are you turning the ski or is the ski turning you"

Are you turning the car, or are the tires turning the car?

The skiing version is just dumb. Not profound.
It’s as bad as putting someone static in a narrow or wide stance and pushing them over. Then claiming, “see how more stable it is?”
If the point is “don’t be passive”, we should make that point.

 

[Tony Storaro]

Are you turning the car, or are the tires turning the car?

I have tried to turn my car by shifting my weight from left to right on the seat. Didnt work well.
Whereas it works brilliantly on ski.

 

[Seldomski]

I played with this idea today on rollerblades. Definitely felt different and better making short turns on skates. Better means more even forces around the full turn and even speed control.

For me, when I do something "athletic" I sometimes put an exclamation point on it at the *end* of the movement. Whether it's lifting weights or kicking a ball or skiing. The extra "umphh" is at the 'end' of whatever I did. So in skiing, if I feel good about a turn sometimes I jam extra force at the *end* of the turn. Sort of like an exclamation point on that turn.

If I reframe where the turn starts to the apex, I am more likely to put more force at the next apex or just before apex vs. the transition. This force is more useful at that location of the turn vs the transition. It yields better control and does not interrupt flow.

Other thing I notice is that I am thinking about lining up for the next apex at the prior apex. The transition sort of happens automatically in between. The mental redirection occurs at the next apex, where it feels like there is more time to think about things.

Also seemed to be easier to look farther down the road. Interesting stuff. Thanks for the discussion @LiquidFeet .

 

[cantunamunch]

I have tried to turn my car by shifting my weight from left to right on the seat. Didnt work well.
Whereas it works brilliantly on ski.

Dude. Everyone knows you should do it from the ANKLES

 

[JESinstr]

Are you turning the car, or are the tires turning the car?

The skiing version is just dumb. Not profound.
It’s as bad as putting someone static in a narrow or wide stance and pushing them over. Then claiming, “see how more stable it is?”
If the point is “don’t be passive”, we should make that point.

Very Profound in terms of intent and resulting performance.

 

[chilehed]

It’s a good drill. Straight run down fall line, edge both skis, turn out of fall line without pivoting your tails out of your RR tracks. Starting on mellow terrain

This is THE drill that helped me find the edges. Start by pressuring the soles of your feet, with no other input.

 

[JESinstr]

My only objection is to “easily”. It isnt easy nor it comes naturally. The slopes are full of even intermediates who try to force their ski into turns resulting in Z turns and unnecessary dragging the ski all around the slope.
Learning to work with the sidecut and flex of the ski takes quite a long time from what I see.

But this is what shaped skis have brought to the party and that is why traditional methods using rotary for initiation are defeating the intended design function of the ski.

The hard part is getting beginners to change how they dynamic balance (balance while on the move) from a locomotion methodology (heel & toe) to a centered, through the arch methodology. Once they get that and you position them on their edges in a wedge it becomes a matter of left/ right pressure management for them to experience the ski turning them.

Rotary comes in when the above fails to keep them on their intended path.

 

[James]

Whereas it works brilliantly on ski.

Yep, you’re the steering wheel.
Of course it’s possible to do that and not turn the skis, or get edge locked and a runaway.
Like the car, you have to stop turning the wheel at some point. Or the wheels/skis will keep going where you set them to.

Very Profound in terms of intent and resulting performance.

You’re going to have to explain that one.
Confucius didn’t ski!

 

[Chris V.]

It’s a good drill. Straight run down fall line, edge both skis, turn out of fall line without pivoting your tails out of your RR tracks. Starting on mellow terrain

It's how a racer starts every race. Just something students might want to think about.

 

[Tony Storaro]

But this is what shaped skis have brought to the party and that is why traditional methods using rotary for initiation are defeating the intended design function of the ski.

The hard part is getting beginners to change how they dynamic balance (balance while on the move) from a locomotion methodology (heel & toe) to a centered, through the arch methodology. Once they get that and you position them on their edges in a wedge it becomes a matter of left/ right pressure management for them to experience the ski turning them.

Rotary comes in when the above fails to keep them on their intended path.

You can explain that to a beginner, show them how it is done many times and still they try to actively turn the skis instead of get them on edge and let the sidecut turn them.
I have observed that same thing in fly fishing. Beginners always ALWAYS overpower the cast resulting in a tailing loop in best case and a total mess in the worst. It takes time to start trusting the equipment and let it do its part.
Same as a beginner caster who is WOW when they get it right the first time, when they manage to fully load the rod and then stop and just watch the whole line plus some backing shoot in perfect loop into the distance, it is an almost life changing revelation for beginner/intermediate skiers when they realize how much easier skiing is when you let the ski do their part instead of forcing them left and right the whole time.

It is like that with many things in life-people always want to DO something instead of LET that same thing happen naturally by itself.
But I am getting philosophical here, excuse me…

 

[Tony S]

a bouillabaisse of red herrings

This is possibly the best title for a mystery novel I've ever read. Not to mention its general applicability in this forum. Nobel prize in title writing. Now I'll go back and actually read all these new posts