Northern Rockies/Alberta Big Sky Cuts Tram Access to Lone Peak for Ikon Pass Holders and others......

[PisteOff]

So let me be the dissenting opinion. As a Mountain Collective Pass holder and someone with Boyne Reciprocal resort privileges I am directly impacted by this change as both of these access options no longer include the tram without an added usage fee and I like this change. Every time I travel to Big Sky which either entails a flight or 12 hour drive I am confronted with multi hour waits for the tram. So I have to make a choice, lose half to a full day of skiing for one tram run or skip it altogether. I always opt for the latter because Big Sky has so many great options. With this change I can setup the autopay on my pass and if the weather and visibility are amenable potentially have the opportunity to ski multiple tram runs without sacrificing a day of skiing all for a nominal fee. The big cost of skiing Big Sky for me is actually getting there, so once I am there paying an incremental fee to access epic terrain quickly is worth it.

Now I can see local BS pass holders who normally buy lower tier passes being miffed especially if they regularly ski the tram, but everyone seems to be upset about the Ikon pass not sharing this change in advance. Let’s be clear if you’re already planning a destination ski vacation at Big Sky using your Ikon Pass, you are already spending thousands, so claiming that the added tram fee makes it economically out of reach is a weak argument. If you can afford to travel to Big Sky you can afford the added $20-80 for a day of tram skiing. Trust me your time you gain on the slopes is worth more per hour than what they are charging. Also as @Philpug said if you do not like this you can most likely get a refund.

I agree with this.... $50 bucks or whatever it is is chump change when you drop $27 on a beer and a burger for lunch. It just is. We were at the BS gathering too. 6-12 fresh everyday. Only saw the peak once and only for part of the day. They spent most our time there blasting the bowl. 5 days straight at BS and barely scratched the surface. We intend to return and we intend to ski the peak weather permitting. The money simply won’t matter. I’m a lot stronger skier than I was last time there too. The tree runs on that mountain launched a growth spurt in my skiing that has accelerated quickly the past couple seasons. There is such an abundance of varying pitch off piste terrain there that I feel comfortable in saying it is likely the best off piste training ground in North America.

 

[PisteOff]

Have I mentioned that I miss all you crazy fuckers......

 

[Ken_R]

AAAhhh, surface lifts! Guaranteed to keep the old people off the slope after just one trip up it!

Steep surface lifts are the best crowd control device ever on the slopes.

 

[Bill Miles]

Steep surface lifts are the best crowd control device ever on the slopes.

Especially if it is a high speed rope tow (may not exist anymore)

 

[SpikeDog]

I've shot off an email to IKON about this, and got the standard "we'll pass this upwards and see what happens" robo-response. I'll let you know if anything comes out of it, but I'm not expecting anything groundbreaking like a refund offer or even an apology. It's been very interesting to hear all the responses so far on this topic, and there seems to be no really good answers other than Big Sky should have put more capacity in place where the demand is.

I remember a topic on EpicSki - "what is your favorite lift of all time?". Mine was the temporary East Ridge chair at Jackson Hole (now the Marmot lift) that JHMR put in while they were replacing the tram. You could do laps in Rendezvous Bowl, take a peek into Corbets, then finish off with a roundabout through the East Ridge into Ten Sleep. I heard all kinds of locals whining about the sacrilegious nature of that chairlift, but even with only half the chairs mounted on that lift, it was the best chairlift in North America for a season. It's not so hard to pull off, Big Sky.

 

[sparty]

Steep surface lifts are the best crowd control device ever on the slopes.

Beartooth Basin, anyone? Bonus points for the pomas that are missing the discs and require holding on, waterski style.

Re: crossing traffic, ANSI B.77 was updated in 2017 and I had previously read included a requirement that new construction surface lifts not have crossing traffic. I can't find a reference for that now, so I could be mistaken, and I'm not ponying up the cash for a copy of the standard to check.

I do understand the slippery slope concerns and the concerns about the precedent for paying more for a premium lift, but as this stands now, it seems like a reasonable attempt to mitigate crowding (and I say that as someone who would probably have missed out on tram rides had the policy been in place when I did ride the tram).

 

[fatbob]

There is such an abundance of varying pitch off piste terrain there that I feel comfortable in saying it is likely the best off piste training ground in North America.

British Columbia looks at you and shrugs "Whatever eh!"

 

[DanoT]

There is such an abundance of varying pitch off piste terrain there that I feel comfortable in saying it is likely the best off piste training ground in North America.

British Columbia looks at you and shrugs "Whatever eh!"

@fatbob, this British Columbian disagrees with you. If you are talking about in bounds, lift accessed (via traverse but not hiking) then, imo Lone Peak easily trumps Kicking Horse, Revelstoke, Whistler, Red, Whitewater or anywhere else in western Canada.

If you are talking about lift access to the back country and then hike from there and not end up back in bounds at the end of the run, then it is B.C. for the win.

Edit: And another thing, @fatbob, what do you think you are doing, disagreeing with @PisteOff about off piste?

 

[dovski]

@fatbob, this British Columbian disagrees with you. If you are talking about in bounds, lift accessed (via traverse but not hiking) then, imo Lone Peak easily trumps Kicking Horse, Revelstoke, Whistler, Red, Whitewater or anywhere else in western Canada.

If you are talking about lift access to the back country and then hike from there and not end up back in bounds at the end of the run, then it is B.C. for the win.

Edit: And another thing, @fatbob, what do you think you are doing, disagreeing with @PisteOff about off piste?

What about Alberta ya hoser
Delirium Dive at Sunshine or some of the lift accessed terrain at Lake Louise?

 

[DanoT]

What about Alberta ya hoser
Delirium Dive at Sunshine or some of the lift accessed terrain at Lake Louise?

Good point about Sunshine Village's Delirium Dive and what a great video. I saved it to my PC.

I spent most of the winter of 1974 ski bumming at Lake Louise and visited Sunshine a few times. Back then there was no avy gate at Delirium Dive, no avy gear required, no aluminum staircase and likely no explosives/avy control.. Instead of the staircase there was a rope that you hung onto with one hand while balancing your skinny 200cm+ skis and poles on your shoulder with the other hand. I did a hard pass on Delirium Dive.

Yeah, Lake Louise does have arguably the best or at least some of the best terrain in Canada.

In 1974 at Louise there was no lift service for Whitehorn 1 or Paradise Bowl so very few ventured there, and the new back then but now derelict Olympic Chair was as high as you could go in the Grizzly Bowl. In fact today's Lake Louise is so reconfigured that the Ptarmigan Chair is the only lift that is still in the original location (thankfully not the original chair).

Edit: I loved the Delirium Dive video but I still think Lone Peak trumps it.

 

[dovski]

Good point about Sunshine Village's Delirium Dive and what a great video. I saved it to my PC.

I spent most of the winter of 1974 ski bumming at Lake Louise and visited Sunshine a few times. Back then there was no avy gate at Delirium dive, no avy gear required, no aluminum staircase and likely no explosives/avy control.. Instead of the staircase there was a rope that you hung onto with one hand while balancing your skinny 200cm+ skis and poles on your shoulder with the other hand. I did a hard pass on Delirium Dive.

They still have ropes/wires in some parts of Delirium Dive to help you climb to the ski access points, I like to describe it as lift accessed ski mountaineering. Not sure that the actual skiing is any more challenging than Lone Peak or JH, but I would argue what you have to do to access those gnarly drops is much more challenging. It has also been there for 40+ years as the video said they were doin this at Sunshine way before any other resort in NA offered extreme terrain. If you want to ski it I encourage you to hire a guide the first time unless you know someone who skis it well as the wrong turn can take you off a cliff.

Full disclosure growing up I was never allowed to ski it and for good reason. Hoping to hire a guide and ski it for the first time with my kids next season as our plan to do so this year was canceled due to COVID .... just don’t tell my wife

 

[fatbob]

@fatbob, this British Columbian disagrees with you. If you are talking about in bounds, lift accessed (via traverse but not hiking) then, imo Lone Peak easily trumps Kicking Horse, Revelstoke, Whistler, Red, Whitewater or anywhere else in western Canada.

If you are talking about lift access to the back country and then hike from there and not end up back in bounds at the end of the run, then it is B.C. for the win.

Edit: And another thing, @fatbob, what do you think you are doing, disagreeing with @PisteOff about off piste?

To be fair I think we are discounting Lone Peak from the equation by virtue of what @PisteOff said about not taking the tram plus the very basis of this thread being that it is hardly lappable as "training".

I was thinking WB but also Red/WH20 for trees and Fernie for some good minigolf training on varied terrain.

 

[RachelV]

... Would people prefer that Alterra dissolve, and we go back to having to choose a 5-of-6 day multi day ticket for the one resort we plan to go to in addition to our home resort, which had a season pass more expensive than the Ikon? ...

Yes? If it would make weekend / holiday skiing within ~3 hours of a metro area less of an absolute sh*tshow than it's been for the last bit then this is 100% what I prefer, and I really don't think I'm super alone in that perspective.

 

[fatbob]

Yes? If it would make weekend / holiday skiing within ~3 hours of a metro area less of an absolute sh*tshow than it's been for the last bit then this is 100% what I prefer, and I really don't think I'm super alone in that perspective.

To be honest the megapasses have been great for me - I usually get a couple of trips over and can twin a CO started trip with a Tahoe/Mammoth based trip. But I could probably achieve a lot of it with a Mtn collective plus a local midweek type pass, would just have to be a bit more picky and would make the roadtrips to more isolated parts more of a judgement call.

 

[dbostedo]

If it would make weekend / holiday skiing within ~3 hours of a metro area less of an absolute sh*tshow than it's been for the last bit

Unfortunately, IMO I don't believe that would happen. There may be a slight initial reduction, but I think it would settle back out to the current sh*tshow.

 

[dbostedo]

...good minigolf training...

What does that mean?

 

[fatbob]

What does that mean?

Shortish lines but technical i.e. Fernie is more of an "across the bowls" ski area than a pure vert proposition though Polar Peak shakes that up a bit.

 

[tball]

Yes? If it would make weekend / holiday skiing within ~3 hours of a metro area less of an absolute sh*tshow than it's been for the last bit then this is 100% what I prefer, and I really don't think I'm super alone in that perspective.

Agreed, but on the flip side, the economics of the IKON Pass have allowed major capital improvements that I don't believe would have happened otherwise.

We are enjoying the $100M Powdr is putting into Copper and the badly needed new $6M six-pack at Eldora. These upgrades are permanent. We'll see if the IKON Pass partnership is even around in ten years.

 

[RJS]

This -- some areas define themselves by a lift. Mad River has the single chair, Big Sky has the tram to Lone Peak, etc. As Tony said, it's the centerpiece of their advertising. Most people don't bother reading the small print. Pulling a bait-and-switch seems like a good way to piss off your customers. As the saying goes, a happy customer tells nobody; a mad customer tells everybody.

There were previous discussions on walk-up lift ticket prices and "advance purchases" provide a discount, etc. i.e., if you spent five minutes to go online prior to your arrival, you get to save $$$, and the amazement at how few people actually did that.

I imagine Big Sky's new tram policy will likewise catch a decent number of people by surprise.

I completely agree. This is obviously an outsider's perspective having never visited Big Sky, but having heard a lot about it, both from many friends who have raved about it and from reading a lot about the place, my sense is that the tram is part of the ethos of Big Sky. Part of its soul. I couple of months ago I read an essay that someone in this forum posted written by Big Sky about the tram, which further cemented in me just how important it is to the culture of Big Sky.

To be clear, I am intrigued by this policy from an economics standpoint, and selfishly I wouldn't mind paying extra for a shorter tram ride. But, it seems to me like the tram is more than just another lift at Big Sky.

 

[RJS]

Here's a question to the folks here who know Big Sky well: would there be support in the community for a chairlift or T-bar that went from the top of Dakota up Liberty Bowl, stopping at the Yeti Traverse with a rule that you are not allowed to hike uphill from there? I am looking at the trail map, and I feel like such a lift could accomplish many goals:

• Allow people to more easily ski what I am guessing is the majority of the terrain skied off the tram while still restricting access to the Big/Little Couloirs and North Summit Snowfields to only be people who take the tram - most people get to ski the terrain they want to, while preserving snow quality on the terrain only accessed by the tram
• Even if there are still long lines at the tram for folks wanting to ski those runs or get the 360 degree views, you can avoid those lines and still ski most of what you want to ski up there
• Provide redundancy - if there is a mechanical failure of the tram, or they cannot run it yet it is safe to open the terrain (guessing this does not happen often) you could allow people to bootpack it to the summit from the top of this lift on these occasions only

I would guess that a short double chairlift or T-bar would be relatively inexpensive, at least relative to Big Sky's other lift projects or the costs of creating a larger tram.

Thoughts? Given my lack of actually skiing at Big Sky, there could be many holes in this idea .