Binding systems that slide on built-in rails in the ski vs screwed on bindings, advantages & disadvantages?

onenerdykid

Product Manager, Atomic Ski Boots
Masterfit Bootfitter
Manufacturer
Joined
Feb 18, 2020
Posts
261
Location
Altenmarkt, Austria
How and what would feel different?
The STH2 binding will be far more responsive, precise, and direct. You would notice this when tipping the ski on edge and moving from turn to turn. The kid's binding is delayed and sluggish. The STH2 also has much more elasticity and is able to absorb hits/shocks better, whereas the kid's binding will most likely release you from the binding when you don't want to release from the binding. In other words, the kid's binding lacks good suspension and will not be able to discern the natural bumpiness of skiing from "I need to pop out of my binding now".
 

dbostedo

Asst. Gathermeister
Moderator
Joined
Feb 9, 2016
Posts
8,955
Location
Northern Virginia, USA
In other words, the kid's binding lacks good suspension and will not be able to discern the natural bumpiness of skiing from "I need to pop out of my binding now".
Given that they would presumably test to the same release value, what's the reason for this? Is it because a release test is in a single direction, and the actual movement/forces of the boot in the binding is multidirectional? Is it because a better binding "snaps-back" or recenters things more quickly? Something else?
 

onenerdykid

Product Manager, Atomic Ski Boots
Masterfit Bootfitter
Manufacturer
Joined
Feb 18, 2020
Posts
261
Location
Altenmarkt, Austria
Given that they would presumably test to the same release value, what's the reason for this? Is it because a release test is in a single direction, and the actual movement/forces of the boot in the binding is multidirectional? Is it because a better binding "snaps-back" or recenters things more quickly? Something else?
Correct - release value and elasticity (the ability of the binding to allow the boot to re-center) are different things. This is why two different bindings both set to 7 can behave and ski very differently.
 

Philpug

Notorious P.U.G.
Admin
SkiTalk Tester
Joined
Nov 1, 2015
Posts
29,144
Location
Reno, eNVy
Correct - release value and elasticity (the ability of the binding to allow the boot to re-center) are different things. This is why two different bindings both set to 7 can behave and ski very differently.
An example is with @onenerdykid 's Atomic Warden 13 and Sth2 13. the Warden with it's lateral spring in the toe has a faster return to center and the Sth2 13 with it's longitudinal spring has more elasticity.
 

bbbradley

Getting on the lift
Skier
Joined
Mar 8, 2020
Posts
168
Location
East Coast
The STH2 binding will be far more responsive, precise, and direct. You would notice this when tipping the ski on edge and moving from turn to turn. The kid's binding is delayed and sluggish. The STH2 also has much more elasticity and is able to absorb hits/shocks better, whereas the kid's binding will most likely release you from the binding when you don't want to release from the binding. In other words, the kid's binding lacks good suspension and will not be able to discern the natural bumpiness of skiing from "I need to pop out of my binding now".
My non-race skis have Head FF EVO 14 (4-14 DIN) on them vs my race skis have Rossi/Look 10-18, Marker 10-18, and Atomic 11-19. I've not noticed an appreciable difference among any of those bindings though it's rare I ski the lower DIN Head and any of the higher DIN skis on the same day where it's more likely I'd noticed anything.

 

Philpug

Notorious P.U.G.
Admin
SkiTalk Tester
Joined
Nov 1, 2015
Posts
29,144
Location
Reno, eNVy
My non-race skis have Head FF EVO 14 (4-14 DIN) on them vs my race skis have Rossi/Look 10-18, Marker 10-18, and Atomic 11-19. I've not noticed an appreciable difference among any of those bindings though it's rare I ski the lower DIN Head and any of the higher DIN skis on the same day where it's more likely I'd noticed anything.

I think you would notice a difference if you compared the FF Evo 14 (which is a fine binding) vs. an all metal housed 17 or 18 version of the same bindings especially at competition speeds and conditions.
 

Eleeski

Making fresh tracks
Skier
Joined
Nov 13, 2015
Posts
2,229
Location
San Diego / skis at Squaw Valley
I'm not sure that I frequently displace my bindings to where a release starts and returns to center. Maybe when I hit a hidden stump or something weird happens in a turn. But not in normal (even aggressive) skiing. So I should not be able to feel binding differences.

With that said, I release a lot less on modern bindings than the bindings from decades ago. All that technology and design really does work. Note that a lighter spring in a plastic housing does not negate the mechanics at work. Nor should a lower DIN setting in the same binding.

The racer who skied away from the spectacular mid course 180 (circulating here this winter) was far safer staying in - it was reported that he injured his knee but the high speed fall could have been far more serious. Bode Miller's career ended on a severe slice wound from a released ski. So sometimes an 18+ DIN is appropriate. But the difference can't be felt until the release happens.

I do feel extra weight on every turn and every chairlift ride.

Eric
 

Philpug

Notorious P.U.G.
Admin
SkiTalk Tester
Joined
Nov 1, 2015
Posts
29,144
Location
Reno, eNVy
With that said, I release a lot less on modern bindings than the bindings from decades ago. All that technology and design really does work.
I could ski a 1990 Salomon 957 Race with complete conficence as any "modern" binding. The technology in that is no different than the modern incarnation Sth2 13. I would feel just as safe with an all metal Look Z Forza from the same era as a Pivot 15.
 

anders_nor

Out on the slopes
Skier
Joined
Jan 18, 2020
Posts
871
Location
on snow
onpiste vs offpiste though and what your up for, sometimes light is good, IE treeskiiing not to fast, other times when doing highspeed stuff onpiste where you just edelock or bounce from side to side with energy I dont feel weight is a thing.

my boots can vary 1KG depending on what I want for the day
 

onenerdykid

Product Manager, Atomic Ski Boots
Masterfit Bootfitter
Manufacturer
Joined
Feb 18, 2020
Posts
261
Location
Altenmarkt, Austria
My non-race skis have Head FF EVO 14 (4-14 DIN) on them vs my race skis have Rossi/Look 10-18, Marker 10-18, and Atomic 11-19. I've not noticed an appreciable difference among any of those bindings though it's rare I ski the lower DIN Head and any of the higher DIN skis on the same day where it's more likely I'd noticed anything.
But you're still on different skis with each binding. It becomes more tangible when you take away the difference in skis & plates. But, even then, it might be hard to tell the difference. We're not at the same level that racers are who can feel the difference in how many screws are in toe proto-A and toe proto-B.
 

onenerdykid

Product Manager, Atomic Ski Boots
Masterfit Bootfitter
Manufacturer
Joined
Feb 18, 2020
Posts
261
Location
Altenmarkt, Austria
I'm not sure that I frequently displace my bindings to where a release starts and returns to center. Maybe when I hit a hidden stump or something weird happens in a turn. But not in normal (even aggressive) skiing. So I should not be able to feel binding differences.
You'd be surprised what you feel when the binding is the only variable that changes. And if you were to ski a binding with zero elasticity (like a locked out TLT binding), you would be blown away by how much suspension a good alpine binding has that you never knew existed prior said test.
 

bbbradley

Getting on the lift
Skier
Joined
Mar 8, 2020
Posts
168
Location
East Coast
But you're still on different skis with each binding. It becomes more tangible when you take away the difference in skis & plates. But, even then, it might be hard to tell the difference. We're not at the same level that racers are who can feel the difference in how many screws are in toe proto-A and toe proto-B.
I'll be happy to test a few pairs of Redster FIS SL skis and various bindings next winter for you. :P
 

Eleeski

Making fresh tracks
Skier
Joined
Nov 13, 2015
Posts
2,229
Location
San Diego / skis at Squaw Valley
You'd be surprised what you feel when the binding is the only variable that changes. And if you were to ski a binding with zero elasticity (like a locked out TLT binding), you would be blown away by how much suspension a good alpine binding has that you never knew existed prior said test.
I'd be interested in that test.

My experience with different bindings on the same setup is that snow conditions, binding placement and edge conditions are far larger variables than the bindings. Going lighter has been a noticeable benefit for me as has going lower (actually done both). Loose binding screws are slightly noticeable - more because I have pulled a few out and that is a release I don't want so I'm pretty in tune with that feel (but maybe more on the chair than the snow).

@Philpug I'm not sure I want race bindings for my skiing. The kid's bindings might be more suited to my skiing!

Eric
 

onenerdykid

Product Manager, Atomic Ski Boots
Masterfit Bootfitter
Manufacturer
Joined
Feb 18, 2020
Posts
261
Location
Altenmarkt, Austria

markojp

mtn rep for the gear on my feet
Industry Insider
Instructor
Joined
Nov 12, 2015
Posts
4,820
Location
PNW aka SEA
I do feel extra weight on every turn and every chairlift ride.

Eric
This is why god put foot rests on chairlifts.

FW incredibly little IW, I only notice binding weight when carrying skis. I notice ski swing weight much more.. sometimes for better, sometimes for worse. Sometimes on the same ski, just on a different run. :roflmao:
 
  • Like
Reactions: NE1

Eleeski

Making fresh tracks
Skier
Joined
Nov 13, 2015
Posts
2,229
Location
San Diego / skis at Squaw Valley
Squaw removed the footrests on most of their chairs. Bummer.

I replaced the heavy race bindings on my Head SL skis with a plastic version that fit the same holes. While the skis are still heavy, they are noticeably lighter. I like them more. I do take the skis in the bumps a lot where the entire ski moves around a lot quickly so it's not all swing weight.

I'm waiting for a boron fiber, light and stiff race ski. To go with lighter bindings - on a rail so the placement can be adjusted. And a unicorn.

Eric
 
Top