Bindings 101: What Are Your Questions?

[Dos-Equis]

I just demoed the kendo 88s last weekend and fell in love. Now I need to buy a pair, and choose a binding.

the demo pair came with a set of demo marker Griffon 13 IDs. I heavily disliked the difficult release of these bindings, so I’d like to get a different binding, but I want to keep the same delta.

I have demoed skis I loved and then gone on to buy a pair and hate the pair I actually bought. Considering I get all my skis tuned at the same shop, I think the best explanation is I am sensitive to delta.

Is there a binding out there that would maintain the same delta/feel as the demo griffin but with a dual action heel?

Thanks in advance

 

[Philpug]

I just demoed the kendo 88s last weekend and fell in love. Now I need to buy a pair, and choose a binding.

the demo pair came with a set of demo marker Griffon 13 IDs. I heavily disliked the difficult release of these bindings, so I’d like to get a different binding, but I want to keep the same delta.

I have demoed skis I loved and then gone on to buy a pair and hate the pair I actually bought. Considering I get all my skis tuned at the same shop, I think the best explanation is I am sensitive to delta.

Is there a binding out there that would maintain the same delta/feel as the demo griffin but with a dual action heel?

Thanks in advance

Griffon TCX Demo.

 

[Jeronimo]

Dumb question: what is delta?

 

[Philpug]

Dumb question: what is delta?

The relationship between the toe and heel height. Most bindings have a positive delta, meaning the heel is higher than the toe.

 

[Pat AKA mustski]

Griffon TCX Demo.

I just bought some. They are selling out fast.

 

[Doug Briggs]

VIST jig vs Tyrolia jig. The Tyrolia jig will mount just about every alpine binding Tyrolia sells, including Head and Fischer bindings, too. FreeFlex, Attack, junior, adult, race, recreational... No need to mask the holes you don't need with Tyrolia, because you need them all. ;-) We tape over unused holes on other company's jigs so we don't mis-drill in a busy work environment.

 

[pchewn]

Getting the screws to match up with the existing thread is why it should be done by hand and not a power driver.

Another tip: turn the screw backwards (counter-clockwise) initially (by hand) and feel when it "clicks" into the existing threads, then turn forwards (clockwise) to tighten.

 

[Uncle-A]

Another tip: turn the screw backwards (counter-clockwise) initially (by hand) and feel when it "clicks" into the existing threads, then turn forwards (clockwise) to tighten.

This was mentioned up thread post 1495.

 

[Uncle-A]

VIST jig vs Tyrolia jig. The Tyrolia jig will mount just about every alpine binding Tyrolia sells, including Head and Fischer bindings, too. FreeFlex, Attack, junior, adult, race, recreational... No need to mask the holes you don't need with Tyrolia, because you need them all. ;-) We tape over unused holes on other company's jigs so we don't mis-drill in a busy work environment.

View attachment 197859

This is just one of the reasons why I like Tyrolia.

 

[In2h2o]

@Philpug my shop told me some of the older Marker Squires (approx 6yrs old) will no longer be indemnified next year -- is that true?
Based on inability to be compatible with GW?

 

[Philpug]

@Philpug my shop told me some of the older Marker Squires (approx 6yrs old) will no longer be indemnified next year -- is that true?
Based on inability to be compatible with GW?

10 years is the usual guideline

 

[In2h2o]

10 years is the usual guideline

It was more to do with not being able to adjust toe height for GW?
not so much that the binding was too old?

 

[greentrees]

After demoing 20--25 skis this winter and being nervous of my safety with 95% of them, I found a ski that I didn't have to think about it when going down steeps/trees/bumps in CO- I look where I wanted to go and it just went there with ease. and I didn't have to constantly scrub speed on groomers to stay safe(I'm 270lbs)- The demo had Marker squire bindings.....but I have ordered Tyrolia Protectors to put on the boards I bought. Yesterday I went to the (well-regarded) shop to make sure he has the jig and the older European tech tells me that I need to buy regular bindings, not big demo style bindings on a rail/track because it is going to totally change the character of the ski. He has never heard of the protector binding but said that it is all marketing for bindings that claim to do different things when releasing (like Look bindings) and that all that matters is that you have the DIN set correctly. He also said that if I ski at a 9 DIN right now, that I should buy an 11DIN binding- nothing more, but I have read that you want to be in about the middle of the din- So I should be getting at least a 13 Din if I use 9. I am 270lbs and ski aggressively in variable conditions and easily step out when at a 7.5DIN. I can not imagine this shop hiring anyone but the most knowledgeable techs, but I am questioning........

Question #1- So my question is for expert folks who have skied steeps/trees/moguls on the same ski with different bindings- is this ski going to change character a noticeable amount with the protector binding (vs. a lighter/lower profile like the Salomon strive- or a Look pivot).

Question #2- Should a skier with my profile really be buying a 11 DIN binding.

 

[Philpug]

the older European tech tells me that I need to buy regular bindings, not big demo style bindings on a rail/track because it is going to totally change the character of the ski. He has never heard of the protector binding but said that it is all marketing for bindings that claim to do different things when releasing (like Look bindings) and that all that matters is that you have the DIN set correctly. He also said that if I ski at a 9 DIN right now, that I should buy an 11DIN binding- nothing more,

He might be an older European but his binding knowledge is scarily limited.

I am 270lbs and ski aggressively in variable conditions

Considering the above?

Question #2- Should a skier with my profile really be buying a 11 DIN binding.

No.

 

[Doug Briggs]

@greentrees,

Height, weight (270#), BSL and Skier Type (presumably III, or III+) are needed to know what your DIN should be set to. It is not necessary to be in the middle of the DIN range of a binding for best performance, but it isn't bad, either. Higher DIN bindings tend to have more metal parts making them a bit more durable (a plus) and heavier (could be good or bad depending on your desires).

Bad experiences with older plastic bindings is throwing a false shadow onto current plastic bindings. Current all-plastic bindings are fine, old plastic bindings are prone to break/crack/fall apart due to the age of the plastic; current plastic is light years ahead of plastic from 20, 30 and 40 years ago.

Weight of the binding is a factor in how a binding will affect your skiing. Less weight means you can adjust the position of your skis with less effort, especially when you are light on your ski or airborne. Weight isn't a penalty for carving as the ski's design/sidecut is controlling where your ski is going.

Stack height, the height of the binding (and plate if present) from the topsheet, and delta, the difference between toe height and heel height, are much more significant factors to differences in performance than the binding itself. They directly affect your stance and balance on the ski.

A direct connection between the toe and heel piece will affect how the ski works as well as how the binding functions. A connection between toe and heel usually means you have less influence from the binding affecting the flex of the ski AND it is better at dealing with maintaining proper forward pressure during extreme flexing and rebound of a ski. ('rebound' is the opposite of flexion; it is what happens to the ski when the forces flexing the ski are removed. It rebounds past neutral (unloaded) camber.)

Many, if not most, park riders prefer Look Pivots as they provide a great deal of elasticity at the heel and absorb excessive flex and rebound well. In general, any higher or high end binding is going to have excellent performance with regards to retention, both from forces in a fall and from ski flexion and rebound.

Demo bindings generally longer plates to accommodate more range of boot sole lengths. These plates can affect the flex of a ski to some degree. They also tend to have a taller stack height than plain bindings alone. It is going to be a pretty sensitive skier that would notice a difference between a demo and a retail version of a binding, especially in 'steeps/trees/bumps in CO'.

So many of these factors are personal preference: weight, metal v plastic, DIN setting relative to the range of DIN settings. Some are more objective: affect on flex pattern, maintaining forward pressure, elasticity.

The Protector (edit: I originally wrote 'Progressor') and the Knee Binding are the only bindings that support true lateral release at the heel. It isn't marketing hype. Their retention/release performance may not be ideal but it is a step in the right direction for protecting knees.

 

[James]

The Progressor and the Knee Binding are the only bindings that support true lateral release at the heel.

He meant Protector (Tyrolia).

Question: Is there an old binding from Tyrolia or Geze with that Protector heel?

 

[Doug Briggs]

He meant Protector (Tyrolia).

Question: Is there an old binding from Tyrolia or Geze with that Protector heel?

So did I. I often call the Switch binding different 'S' names due to brain malfunction.

I corrected my original post.

Tyrolia had a lateral movement in many of their heel pieces. They called it 'Diagnonal' or something like that. It only moved diagonally when the heel was already opening up.

 

[Uncle-A]

So did I. I often call the Switch binding different 'S' names due to brain malfunction.

I corrected my original post.

Tyrolia had a lateral movement in many of their heel pieces. They called it 'Diagnonal' or something like that. It only moved diagonally when the heel was already opening up.

The Diagonal heel does have to start to move upward before it goes sideways but it is only a small amount. I have not measured the distance that it has to move up but it is probably less than a centimeter.

You can see behind the screwdriver that the steel plate coming up is on an angle it is like a guide for the heel as it starts to lift up.

 

[Uncle-A]

We often talk about elasticity of a binding and it focuses on the toe of the binding returning to center without releasing. What we don't talk about elasticity in the heel of a binding and it is not about the heel moving back as the ski flexes. So I have to ask what heel has elasticity? I would think that the Look heel and the Tyrolia Diagonal has but not sure about any others. What does the community thing?

 

[Philpug]

We often talk about elasticity of a binding and it focuses on the toe of the binding returning to center without releasing. What we don't talk about elasticity in the heel of a binding and it is not about the heel moving back as the ski flexes. So I have to ask what heel has elasticity? I would think that the Look heel and the Tyrolia Diagonal has but not sure about any others. What does the community thing?

Vertical elasticity? Every binding has it, I think the Pivot has the most at about 25mm. Now, the Protector has 7mm in either lateral direction of the heel before it releases. There is discussion that that adds a level of performance and control too.