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kmb5662

In the parking lot (formerly "At the base lodge")
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Picture of back of heel piece with the boot in the binding will help. There is an adjusting screw that should be flush with the housing if set correctly.
Thanks, will take a look and post a photo when I can. Unfortunately I don't store my skis at home (tiny NYC apartment).
 

Jeronimo

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Atomic logo on heel piece, not Armada and no Armada graphic on toe but the same WTR AFD base plate with what you said is "missing edge wall" in Armada version you posted

Once again Atomic version with same WTR base "with shock absorption underneath the base":

My eyes must be playing tricks on me. There's definitely a difference in that toe piece between them but now with what you posted i'm even more confused...
 

snoroqc

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What a higher elasticity mean VS a low elasticity binding mean at the same din? I mean elasticity should be a part of the the din calculation... Does it mean than binding with higher elasticity will not release when a lower elasticity binding is gonna release (all other thing being equal).
 
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tomahawkins

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What a higher elasticity mean VS a low elasticity binding mean at the same din? I mean elasticity should be a part of the the din calculation... Does it mean than binding with higher elasticity will not release when a lower elasticity binding is gonna release (all other thing being equal).
Elasticity is the range of binding travel before it releases the boot. A high elastic and low elastic binding will release at the same forces (torques) at the same DIN setting. A more elastic, higher travel binding has more time to absorb energy, which, depending on the fall, may mean the difference between staying clamped in and a prerelease.

Consider the climbing world: There are dynamic ropes and static ropes. Dynamic ropes are designed to stretch under load, whereas static ropes do not stretch (much). Now consider the scenario where you are tied in to one end of a rope and the other end is anchored to the cliff above you. You then climb up 5 feet and fall. With the dynamic rope, as soon as you run out of slack the rope starts stretching slowing your fall, keeping the forces on the anchor, your belaying partner, and yourself comfortably low. Now do the same thing with static line (no, don't do it!). Because the static line has lower elasticity, when the line runs out of slack the generated forces are much, much higher, easily exceeding anchor and rope strength. Here's a fun article and video on dynamic loads on slings, comparing stretchy nylon to non stretchy dyneema and shows how easy it is to break the "unbreakable":


Translate this to alpine bindings: A fall with a more elastic binding could keep the forces below the release thresholds and you stay clamped in, whereas a less elastic binding would produce higher forces releasing the boot for the same fall. Note that both release at the same force so your bones stay intact regardless. It's just in one case you continue skiing and in the other you're tomahawking down the hill.
 

Uncle-A

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Elasticity is the range of binding travel before it releases the boot. A high elastic and low elastic binding will release at the same forces (torques) at the same DIN setting. A more elastic, higher travel binding has more time to absorb energy, which, depending on the fall, may mean the difference between staying clamped in and a prerelease.

Consider the climbing world: There are dynamic ropes and static ropes. Dynamic ropes are designed to stretch under load, whereas static ropes do not stretch (much). Now consider the scenario where you are tied in to one end of a rope and the other end is anchored to the cliff above you. You then climb up 5 feet and fall. With the dynamic rope, as soon as you run out of slack the rope starts stretching slowing your fall, keeping the forces on the anchor, your belaying partner, and yourself comfortably low. Now do the same thing with static line (no, don't do it!). Because the static line has lower elasticity, when the line runs out of slack the generated forces are much, much higher, easily exceeding anchor and rope strength. Here's a fun article and video on dynamic loads on slings, comparing stretchy nylon to non stretchy dyneema and shows how easy it is to break the "unbreakable":


Translate this to alpine bindings: A fall with a more elastic binding could keep the forces below the release thresholds and you stay clamped in, whereas a less elastic binding would produce higher forces releasing the boot for the same fall. Note that both release at the same force so your bones stay intact regardless. It's just in one case you continue skiing and in the other you're tomahawking down the hill.
This is good, although I don't know about climbing and the ropes used for climbing, what I do know about bindings is elasticity also means the ability to return to center quickly while holding you in the binding. More advanced bindings tend to have more elasticity and recreational bindings tend to have less elasticity. Better skiers don't always want to come out of there binding. One of the bindings that use to have a high amount of electricity is the Look binding, I don't know about the most recent bindings but a good bindings will have a higher amount of electricity.
 

dan ross

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I look at high elasticity as a “false alarm” preventer assuming you are at the proper DIN. A binding with high elasticity and quick return to center allows you to keep the ski on without over cranking the DIN and still allows you to release when you should -theoretically at least
 

snoroqc

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I look at high elasticity as a “false alarm” preventer assuming you are at the proper DIN. A binding with high elasticity and quick return to center allows you to keep the ski on without over cranking the DIN and still allows you to release when you should -theoretically at least

Make sense. I'm at lower din wirh look bindings than in Attack bindings. The heel release easily in changing snow condition.
Is that make sense than you can run lower din on high elasticity bindings?
 

tomahawkins

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This is one of the selling features that Look Bindings uses. You can ski a lower DIN setting because of the higher elasticity of their binding.
Actually you have two options: If you are okay with the same rate of releases (e.g. average number of releases per season), a higher elastic binding allows you to lower the release force (DIN), thus lowering the chance of injury due to a non release.

Or you can keep the same release force (DIN), then a higher elastic binding will have better retention, thus lowering the chance of injury due to a release, i.e. falling after a ski comes off.

Since DIN is only based on force and torque, this may be the reason that binding companies either don't or can't claim that higher elasticity is safer, even though there is a good indication it is.
 

Pat AKA mustski

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My griffin bindings suddenly became insanely difficult to click into. Literally, I have to use my pole strap to pull up while pushing down with my heel. I had stored them in an outside locker in Taos and they were super icy in the morning. One of them was very difficult and I had to jump/stomp. I assumed it was the icing issue. I brought them inside at lunch and they melted and dried, but the problem persisted. I took them to le ski mastery for a binding check. Alain was not there, but the tech who checked them found nothing wrong. She backed off the forward pressure a bit and adjusted my DIN up because she said it was too low. Now the second ski is just as difficult as the first ski was.

I should add that I have been skiing these all season with no problem until they remained frozen overnight. It’s definitely a problem. If the ski comes off in anything pitchy, I won’t be able to get it back on.

Any thoughts?
 

dan ross

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Were they completely thawed before you stepped into them again?
I gotta admit, this is a puzzler.
 

Pat AKA mustski

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Yes, they were completely thawed. After that, I kept them in the room but the problem continues. I don’t know if the icing up actually had anything to do with it. After she adjusted the DIN on the one ski, that binding sticks also. But DIN shouldn’t have anything to do with clicking in, right?
 

onenerdykid

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Yes, they were completely thawed. After that, I kept them in the room but the problem continues. I don’t know if the icing up actually had anything to do with it. After she adjusted the DIN on the one ski, that binding sticks also. But DIN shouldn’t have anything to do with clicking in, right?
How old are these bindings? Sounds like the pivots need to be cleaned/greased.
 

zircon

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Talk to me about Tyrolia Attack pre-releases and how to prevent them.

I've had a weird issue with Attacks since I got new boots last season. I keep stepping out of them at the heel, mostly in the bumps. Like, once every couple of ski days on these particular skis. Just skiing along and then *bam* I'm lying on my face. Two sets of bindings: demo Attacks, and also flat mounted (remounted for unrelated reasons). Both were set up by a reputable shop.

I am never off balance or out of control when it happens. I am 100% sure the subsequent fall is a result of the release, not the other way around. Sometimes I'll get to make a turn on the remaining ski before the face plant. Doesn't happen on my other skis mounted flat with Marker XCell 12s which I use on the same terrain with the same level of aggression. Did not happen with my previous boots. Wtf? I was like "yeah whatever I'll live with it" but now I'm sidelined because of it and grumpy. Me: 5'5", 120lb, Type 3, so theoretically it should err on the side of not releasing, right?
 

Pat AKA mustski

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How old are these bindings? Sounds like the pivots need to be cleaned/greased.
They are relatively new - Demo bindings on Secrets 96 from 2022. Thanks for the advice- I’ll ask the shop to clean/grease the pivots. I should mention that we had also driven 3 days with them on the roof rack. All the edges on our skis had rust by the time we got to Taos so maybe weather affected the bindings?
 

onenerdykid

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I should mention that we had also driven 3 days with them on the roof rack. All the edges on our skis had rust by the time we got to Taos so maybe weather affected the bindings?
Unfortunately, that would do it and why you should never drive with skis unprotected (no roof box) on a roof rack. It’s not just weather but all the salt, grit, and grime from the roads has been blasting your skis & bindings for 3 days.
 

Juanito

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There are no issues as far as I am aware of, I would start by making sure forward pressure is correct.
I have the very same problem with Attack 13s mounted on Stormrider 97s (both new to me in late 2017).

This is my resort powder ski and I've had several pre-releases in deeper Utah powder (top of boot to knee). What's unnerving is that pre-release occurs when I am more or less skiing the fall line and not, for example, at the bottom of a turn.

I am 5'6" 140 pounds and 70+ years old. BSL is 305 and DIN is set just shy of 6.

I checked the forward pressure and it's in the middle of the range for both bindings. I have the same DIN settings on two other skis with different bindings but they never pre-release.

The Stormrider 97 is a fairly flexible ski but certainly not a noodle. I have wondered whether there's just too much flex underfoot when the skis bend in deep powder.

I don't want to increase the DIN setting and wonder if a different binding or one with a plate would solve the problem.
 

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