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Blizzard Zero G - chatter question

slow-line-fast

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For touring I'm on a 17/18 zero G 95, which I like in every way except for sometimes heinous chatter on hardpack - the firm stuff on a piste underneath the corduroy, or in the backcountry on hard wind-pressed or smooth icy surfaces. It's not an even side-to-side chatter, which I'd expect from any touring ski, but rather sort of pivoting, as if mostly the foremost part of the edge behind the tip rocker is grabbing and releasing. Detuning helps a bit, but the only way to quiet the chatter down in those certain snow conditions is to sit back (so awkward, inefficient, and not in good control).

My question is: has anyone skied both older and newer versions of the zero G, and if so is chatter reduced in the newer versions?

(Of course there are a thousand other variables, including me, mount point (I'm more or less on recommended), bindings, etc etc. I wonder if this ski has too little tail rocker for the tip rocker (neither is much) - which would mean that the binding is in the right place for softer snow and too far forward for hard snow. But could be flex pattern, me, etc, etc.)
 

Noodler

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For touring I'm on a 17/18 zero G 95, which I like in every way except for sometimes heinous chatter on hardpack - the firm stuff on a piste underneath the corduroy, or in the backcountry on hard wind-pressed or smooth icy surfaces. It's not an even side-to-side chatter, which I'd expect from any touring ski, but rather sort of pivoting, as if mostly the foremost part of the edge behind the tip rocker is grabbing and releasing. Detuning helps a bit, but the only way to quiet the chatter down in those certain snow conditions is to sit back (so awkward, inefficient, and not in good control).

My question is: has anyone skied both older and newer versions of the zero G, and if so is chatter reduced in the newer versions?

(Of course there are a thousand other variables, including me, mount point (I'm more or less on recommended), bindings, etc etc. I wonder if this ski has too little tail rocker for the tip rocker (neither is much) - which would mean that the binding is in the right place for softer snow and too far forward for hard snow. But could be flex pattern, me, etc, etc.)

What you describe as "chatter" is quite likely due to a fore/aft stance alignment problem, not necessarily having anything to do with the ski. What boots and bindings are you using with these skis?
 
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What you describe as "chatter" is quite likely due to a fore/aft stance alignment problem, not necessarily having anything to do with the ski. What boots and bindings are you using with these skis?
It’s possible, but I have had the same chatter problem on this ski with two rather different boots: arc teryx procline, and atomic hawx ultra xtd. Vipec binding.
 

anim

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I had the same issue with Zero G 105 and what worked for me was changing the edge angles to 89’ (original was around 88’) and detuning the tips and tails heavily (tips until the Blizzard text and tails until the Zero G logo).
 

Noodler

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I had the same issue with Zero G 105 and what worked for me was changing the edge angles to 89’ (original was around 88’) and detuning the tips and tails heavily (tips until the Blizzard text and tails until the Zero G logo).

So you destroyed the ski's grip in the tips and tails to make up for your lack of skills in being able to carve the ski without chatter? This is not a recipe for success that others should duplicate.
 

anim

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So you destroyed the ski's grip in the tips and tails to make up for your lack of skills in being able to carve the ski without chatter? This is not a recipe for success that others should duplicate.
Quite an aggressive reply... from a person who has probably never seen me ski?

What the ski does is not chatter but something else. This does not happen when carving but in high speed skidded turns on very hard surfaces. The original poster very well described the phenomenon: “It's not an even side-to-side chatter, which I'd expect from any touring ski, but rather sort of pivoting, as if mostly the foremost part of the edge behind the tip rocker is grabbing and releasing.”

I have been ski touring the last two weeks (where this has not been an issue at all) but actually went today to a resort and tested if the ski still does the same weird pivoting on hard pack. Unfortunetely still happens when you do skidded turns on black slopes so yes, detuning does not fully fix the issue but in my experience has helped a bit.
 

cantunamunch

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For touring I'm on a 17/18 zero G 95, which I like in every way except for sometimes heinous chatter on hardpack - the firm stuff on a piste underneath the corduroy, or in the backcountry on hard wind-pressed or smooth icy surfaces. It's not an even side-to-side chatter, which I'd expect from any touring ski, but rather sort of pivoting, as if mostly the foremost part of the edge behind the tip rocker is grabbing and releasing. Detuning helps a bit, but the only way to quiet the chatter down in those certain snow conditions is to sit back (so awkward, inefficient, and not in good control).

How many days on the skis?

This behaviour description is absolutely spot on for a ski losing torsional grip.
 
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How many days on the skis?

This behaviour description is absolutely spot on for a ski losing torsional grip.
I have lost count. Whatever camber they once had is long gone. The chatter has been around for a while - couldn’t say though whether it was always, or after some time.
 

cantunamunch

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Problem goes away on soft snow. Problem gets not as obvious with unsharp edges.

All of what I see is consistent with a ski weak in torsion. The front ski edges want to engage and pull in into the turn, but the body of the ski interior to ski edges can't sustain the load.
 
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Quite an aggressive reply... from a person who has probably never seen me ski?

What the ski does is not chatter but something else. This does not happen when carving but in high speed skidded turns on very hard surfaces. The original poster very well described the phenomenon: “It's not an even side-to-side chatter, which I'd expect from any touring ski, but rather sort of pivoting, as if mostly the foremost part of the edge behind the tip rocker is grabbing and releasing.”

I have been ski touring the last two weeks (where this has not been an issue at all) but actually went today to a resort and tested if the ski still does the same weird pivoting on hard pack. Unfortunetely still happens when you do skidded turns on black slopes so yes, detuning does not fully fix the issue but in my experience has helped a bit.

What year are your 0G 105's? I've read that later versions may have less of this, but rumors.

Your description sounds like my experience. If I get on a very flat piste and just ride the sidecut, no chatter. Also no grip you can trust, but again it's a touring ski. A skidded turn on granular hardpack is usually not a problem (nor any kind of pleasure). But even light skidding across hard windbuff in the process of looking for a route can sometimes trigger this pivoting chatter. Really just some very specific snow conditions, but when it hits it is no good at all.
 
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Problem goes away on soft snow. Problem gets not as obvious with unsharp edges.

All of what I see is consistent with a ski weak in torsion. The front ski edges want to engage and pull in into the turn, but the body of the ski interior to ski edges can't sustain the load.


Makes a lot of sense, if true. With my 190# plus heavy touring backpack, the load on the 178 touring ski is not negligible.
 

anim

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What year are your 0G 105's? I've read that later versions may have less of this, but rumors.

Your description sounds like my experience. If I get on a very flat piste and just ride the sidecut, no chatter. Also no grip you can trust, but again it's a touring ski. A skidded turn on granular hardpack is usually not a problem (nor any kind of pleasure). But even light skidding across hard windbuff in the process of looking for a route can sometimes trigger this pivoting chatter. Really just some very specific snow conditions, but when it hits it is no good at all.
My 105’s are the ‘19/20 model.

Exactly as you said, 99% of time there is no issue but in that specific scenario the ski acts like nothing I have ever skied. Usually skis start to show some kind of high frequency chatter but this slightly slower pivoting motion with Zero G is different. My pair has done this from day 1 onwards.

I also agree with your earlier point that shifting weight back in that case seems to reduce the pivoting but as you said that causes other issues.

Like @Noodler pointed out in his post this could also be a fore/aft stance balancing problem. My skis are mounted on the front line of the two options and having BSL of 340 mm means that my ball of feet is rather forward on the ski. How about you?

Sounds far fetched but could this alternatively have something to do with the binding-ski combo? I have Tecton which to my understanding uses the same toe piece as your Vipec (my boots are Maestrale RS2).
 

charlier

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I ski the new ZeroG 95 ski 172cm, almost exclusively or spring and summer volcano missions. I am 5’9”, 145lbs, and consider myself as a good skier. Compared other similar touring skis (Salomon Mtn. Explorer). On firm morning spring snow, I appreciate the stiff tail and stiff longitudinal flex. With corn snow, even on steeper terrain, the ski is responsive, light, and even a bit poppy. I have only experienced chatter, if I am not locked into turn. Getting forward helps. I have about 30 days on the skis. FYI, I use Atomic Ultra XTD 130 boots. I will report back with the Zero G 95 paired with my new Atomic Backland boots. BSL varies between 302 and 288.
 
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Thanks everyone for your comments. One thing I keep wondering about is, Blizzard makes ripping skis. So then the challenge is, per brand, zero G. So they stuff the thing with carbon fiber, then we stomp on a champagne glass and expect it to give back. And it mostly delivers, but sometimes flat out loses it.
 

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I’d take a look at base and edge finish. Make sure that they aren’t edge high and that there’s about one degree bevel on the base edge. 2 to 3 degrees of bevel on the side edges. Hand finish both with file & diamond stone. That should help. Also look at binding placement and ramp angle. If you’re out of fore aft balance, it will be hard to get the pressure right along the length of the edge and things like the chatter you described are a likely result. Check boots too. I had a different liner in my touring boots that alllowed me too much leverage into the forward flex. Flex felt nice, but tips were losing contact. Went back to the stock liner and a custom footbed and problem solved. I was blaming the skis, but it was the boot set up that was off. I’m annoyed with myself for taking until the end of the season to work this out on my touring kit.
 

ScottB

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Its sounds like there is something going on with the ski that isn't right. I have a Zero G 108, 185 cm ski that hasn't done anything like you describe. I did have to do some work on the base/side bevels when I first got it. I think the tips weren't beveled far enough forward. My fall back for skis performing screwy is get a base grind done to flatten the ski and have the base/side bevels set to whatever angles you prefer. I go with 0.5/3.0 on all my skis, but a 1.0/2.0 deg tune is universal and works well most of the time. If you are heavy and have too much weight forward on the ski, you can over rule the rocker performance and get screwy effects. I think this is what Noodler was referring to. I am heavy and usually mount -1cm from the factory line. On my Zero G's, I actually mounted +0.5 and it works well. I was told by Blister they found +1.5 cm to work better than the factory line, so I did my -1.0 cm to +1.5 recommendation and it worked fine. Not sure about the Zero G 95 ski. I also found I liked the tip sharp all the way and the tail dulled back to the contact point. Makes engage and carve well and also allows the tail to pivot out when desired. I did have a Liberty Origin 96 ski with lots of tip rocker do something like you describe. The tip was flexing and engaging/dis-engaging which felt really bad. The base grind and some detuning cured that and it never came back. Again, most skis that perform screwy have a tune issue, and its not always obvious what the issue is. But when its tuned right, it all just goes away. If you have already done the new tune (and you know the shop did it correctly) then you are into another level of troubleshooting and I would suggest moving you bindings if you can, or trying to raise your toe piece (or boot) to shift weight off the front of the ski and see what effect it has. Noodler plays with shims all the time until he gets a ski where he wants it. I have found I need to add shims on some of my skis, and others are fine. I find its a function of the binding and the difference in toe versus heel height. I like a close to even toe/heel height and some bindings are very heel high, which give me issues.
 

Ken_R

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For touring I'm on a 17/18 zero G 95, which I like in every way except for sometimes heinous chatter on hardpack - the firm stuff on a piste underneath the corduroy, or in the backcountry on hard wind-pressed or smooth icy surfaces. It's not an even side-to-side chatter, which I'd expect from any touring ski, but rather sort of pivoting, as if mostly the foremost part of the edge behind the tip rocker is grabbing and releasing. Detuning helps a bit, but the only way to quiet the chatter down in those certain snow conditions is to sit back (so awkward, inefficient, and not in good control).

My question is: has anyone skied both older and newer versions of the zero G, and if so is chatter reduced in the newer versions?

(Of course there are a thousand other variables, including me, mount point (I'm more or less on recommended), bindings, etc etc. I wonder if this ski has too little tail rocker for the tip rocker (neither is much) - which would mean that the binding is in the right place for softer snow and too far forward for hard snow. But could be flex pattern, me, etc, etc.)

I have skied the older Zero G 95's (previous to 2021) and the newer G 105's and liked them both. As chatter free as you can get in AT type skis. Pretty darn smooth and with really good edge hold.
 

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