Boot Doc Foam Liners

[Ivan]

Well, time for another update. It seems that I underestimated the amount of discomfort that I had/have. As I skied more in my liners and did more training sessions, I realized that they actually were pretty uncomfortable. Maybe initially I didn't notice that discomfort because the weather was cold, and my feet became less sensitive because of that.

Anyway, I was feeling pretty uncomfortable in my Lange World Cup ZB (in which the liners were foamed), and I also felt for some time that they may be too still for me. I got a new pair of the Lange World Cup ZA (slightly newer model, with Dual Core). The shell is slightly different, but presumably not too much. Had them fitted by Scott Hopkins at Guenther's at Elk, everything felt great in the shop, but I still feel discomfort on the mountain (though less than in the old ones). I have not only to unbuckle them, but also to remove all buckles from the rungs to move my feet inside the boots on the lift to make it manageable. Still feel some discomfort at the end of the day.

The stock liners that came with the new boots feel great (I have tried them at home but not on the hill, with the BootDoc liners that Dieter made for me). The discomfort that I have in the BootDocs is in the foot area (mostly sides of the feet). The BootDoc liners are a lot bulkier than the stock liners, so presumably they squeeze the feet a bit too tight (see pics below). Maybe this is what I should have expected with the World Cup liner, but I thought it would be tight, but not uncomfortably tight. At the same time, in the cuff area, in the booster strap zone, the stock liner seems to wrap my feet a bit better because its tongue is a bit thicker (I didn't get the foam tongue). I will try to deal with that by lacing the BootDoc liner better and see if that helps.

Now, the question is: how normal is what I am experiencing and what should I do next? I could use the stock liners, but they will eventually pack out, and I will have the same issue again. I could possibly go to a fitter (Scott or Dieter) and have them punch or grind the boots, but to some extent this would defeat the purpose. I have really narrow feet, the stock liner fits me great, and the reason for getting the BootDoc was to replace the stock liner. There is no need in punching/grinding other than to accommodate the BootDoc liners. Or should I just wait, break the liners in more (I've only skied in them about 10 times), and hope that they would pack out a bit more?

Oh, yes, and I'm also trying the acetone trick that Dieter suggested (inject some acetone inside the foam liner with a syringe to soften the foam a bit). So far, with limited success, but maybe I should wait more.

@Wendy @Philpug @Muleski Sorry to bother you, but I believe you might have had quite a bit of experience with BootDoc liners. I wonder what your advice would be (other than go and see a bootfitter, which I will probably do soon anyway)?

 

[Wendy]

Well, time for another update. It seems that I underestimated the amount of discomfort that I had/have. As I skied more in my liners and did more training sessions, I realized that they actually were pretty uncomfortable. Maybe initially I didn't notice that discomfort because the weather was cold, and my feet became less sensitive because of that.

Anyway, I was feeling pretty uncomfortable in my Lange World Cup ZB (in which the liners were foamed), and I also felt for some time that they may be too still for me. I got a new pair of the Lange World Cup ZA (slightly newer model, with Dual Core). The shell is slightly different, but presumably not too much. Had them fitted by Scott Hopkins at Guenther's at Elk, everything felt great in the shop, but I still feel discomfort on the mountain (though less than in the old ones). I have not only to unbuckle them, but also to remove all buckles from the rungs to move my feet inside the boots on the lift to make it manageable. Still feel some discomfort at the end of the day.

The stock liners that came with the new boots feel great (I have tried them at home but not on the hill, with the BootDoc liners that Dieter made for me). The discomfort that I have in the BootDocs is in the foot area (mostly sides of the feet). The BootDoc liners are a lot bulkier than the stock liners, so presumably they squeeze the feet a bit too tight (see pics below). Maybe this is what I should have expected with the World Cup liner, but I thought it would be tight, but not uncomfortably tight. At the same time, in the cuff area, in the booster strap zone, the stock liner seems to wrap my feet a bit better because its tongue is a bit thicker (I didn't get the foam tongue). I will try to deal with that by lacing the BootDoc liner better and see if that helps.

Now, the question is: how normal is what I am experiencing and what should I do next? I could use the stock liners, but they will eventually pack out, and I will have the same issue again. I could possibly go to a fitter (Scott or Dieter) and have them punch or grind the boots, but to some extent this would defeat the purpose. I have really narrow feet, the stock liner fits me great, and the reason for getting the BootDoc was to replace the stock liner. There is no need in punching/grinding other than to accommodate the BootDoc liners. Or should I just wait, break the liners in more (I've only skied in them about 10 times), and hope that they would pack out a bit more?

Oh, yes, and I'm also trying the acetone trick that Dieter suggested (inject some acetone inside the foam liner with a syringe to soften the foam a bit). So far, with limited success, but maybe I should wait more.

@Wendy @Philpug @Muleski Sorry to bother you, but I believe you might have had quite a bit of experience with BootDoc liners. I wonder what your advice would be (other than go and see a bootfitter, which I will probably do soon anyway)?

View attachment 163158 View attachment 163159

I’m not a bootfitter, so understand my advice is based on my personal experience only, not expertise. So, you are saying that the stock liners in your boots currently are fine, but you are choosing to use the Boot Doc liners? If so, why don’t you use the stock liners for now? Maybe they will last longer than you think; liners seem to be improving a lot. IMO, DON’T get your boots punched to accommodate your Boot Doc liner!

The foam in the Boot Doc liners, unlike a stock liner, Intuition, or Zipfit, offers no “give.” It’s pretty rigid, and IIRC, it doesn’t really “break in.” It stays the same, pretty much, as it was on the day you got it foamed. If there are any changes to your foot after getting it foamed, as can happen as time goes on, then you are SOL.

Did Dieter pad your toes and instep before the foaming process? He didn’t do that for my last Boot Doc liner, and I had absolutely no room, even when leaving the shell unbuckled. On warm days, I’d be in agony. I’ve learned the hard way that I DO need some breathing room in there, for when my feet swell, etc. I do have a Nordica World Cup foam liner that Billy Kaplan made; he did cap my toes and instep. With that liner, I do have to lace it up to have it fit snugly against my foot, and that is by design. He told me that the way he foamed the liner, was for me to be able to use it in other shells besides the one in which it was foamed. I haven’t tested it yet in my new shells.

If I’m interpreting your pictures correctly, the Boot Doc liner is the black one in your pics. Wow, it looks so much bigger than the stock liner; I’m surprised it fits into your shell.

I’ll let @Philpug , who recently fit me in a very comfy pair of K2 boots, chime in here with his expertise.

 

[Philpug]

I’ll let @Philpug , who recently fit me in a very comfy pair of K2 boots, chime in here with his expertise.

It has been at least 5 years since I was fit in a BootDoc liner so I will defer to @bud heishman or @Toddski13.

 

[Ivan]

I’m not a bootfitter, so understand my advice is based on my personal experience only, not expertise. So, you are saying that the stock liners in your boots currently are fine, but you are choosing to use the Boot Doc liners? If so, why don’t you use the stock liners for now? Maybe they will last longer than you think; liners seem to be improving a lot. IMO, DON’T get your boots punched to accommodate your Boot Doc liner!

The foam in the Boot Doc liners, unlike a stock liner, Intuition, or Zipfit, offers no “give.” It’s pretty rigid, and IIRC, it doesn’t really “break in.” It stays the same, pretty much, as it was on the day you got it foamed. If there are any changes to your foot after getting it foamed, as can happen as time goes on, then you are SOL.

Did Dieter pad your toes and instep before the foaming process? He didn’t do that for my last Boot Doc liner, and I had absolutely no room, even when leaving the shell unbuckled. On warm days, I’d be in agony. I’ve learned the hard way that I DO need some breathing room in there, for when my feet swell, etc. I do have a Nordica World Cup foam liner that Billy Kaplan made; he did cap my toes and instep. With that liner, I do have to lace it up to have it fit snugly against my foot, and that is by design. He told me that the way he foamed the liner, was for me to be able to use it in other shells besides the one in which it was foamed. I haven’t tested it yet in my new shells.

If I’m interpreting your pictures correctly, the Boot Doc liner is the black one in your pics. Wow, it looks so much bigger than the stock liner; I’m surprised it fits into your shell.

I’ll let @Philpug , who recently fit me in a very comfy pair of K2 boots, chime in here with his expertise.

Thank you for your response! Let me clarify this: I initially got the BootDoc liners for my old boots. My old liners, which had about 40 days, were totally packed out. I probably had about an inch of heel lift. This is why I went for the BootDocs in the first place!

However, now I got new boots (which are almost identical to the old ones) and, hence, new liners. The new liners seem to work well in the new boots; however, given that they are identical to the old ones (there is only one year difference between the boots: the old ones are the 2017 model, the new ones are the 2018 model; the liners are identical), I also expect them to last a pretty short amount of time. On another note, I believe Lange race liners are (in)famous for lasting very short time. They are good, but they are thin and they wear out very fast.

Dieter did pad my toes... As for instep, I am not sure. Lengthwise, I am fine (my toes touch the end of the liner, but that is fine), but widthwise (or volumewise, if that's a word), I'm not sure. I can barely buckle the lowest two buckles, especially the 2nd one. When Scott, at Guenther's, saw my liners, he looked pretty surprised (like, "Who did this?") My boots are a 92mm last boots in size 26.5 shell, so these liners do indeed look pretty big for them and barely fit inside. It probably feels almost like trying to fly a 747 from Wilkes-Barre/Scranton Airport

 

[Noodler]

@Ivan - PM sent.

 

[James]

Well, time for another update. It seems that I underestimated the amount of discomfort that I had/have. As I skied more in my liners and did more training sessions, I realized that they actually were pretty uncomfortable. Maybe initially I didn't notice that discomfort because the weather was cold, and my feet became less sensitive because of that.

Anyway, I was feeling pretty uncomfortable in my Lange World Cup ZB (in which the liners were foamed), and I also felt for some time that they may be too still for me. I got a new pair of the Lange World Cup ZA (slightly newer model, with Dual Core). The shell is slightly different, but presumably not too much. Had them fitted by Scott Hopkins at Guenther's at Elk, everything felt great in the shop, but I still feel discomfort on the mountain (though less than in the old ones). I have not only to unbuckle them, but also to remove all buckles from the rungs to move my feet inside the boots on the lift to make it manageable. Still feel some discomfort at the end of the day.

The stock liners that came with the new boots feel great (I have tried them at home but not on the hill, with the BootDoc liners that Dieter made for me). The discomfort that I have in the BootDocs is in the foot area (mostly sides of the feet). The BootDoc liners are a lot bulkier than the stock liners, so presumably they squeeze the feet a bit too tight (see pics below). Maybe this is what I should have expected with the World Cup liner, but I thought it would be tight, but not uncomfortably tight. At the same time, in the cuff area, in the booster strap zone, the stock liner seems to wrap my feet a bit better because its tongue is a bit thicker (I didn't get the foam tongue). I will try to deal with that by lacing the BootDoc liner better and see if that helps.

Now, the question is: how normal is what I am experiencing and what should I do next? I could use the stock liners, but they will eventually pack out, and I will have the same issue again. I could possibly go to a fitter (Scott or Dieter) and have them punch or grind the boots, but to some extent this would defeat the purpose. I have really narrow feet, the stock liner fits me great, and the reason for getting the BootDoc was to replace the stock liner. There is no need in punching/grinding other than to accommodate the BootDoc liners. Or should I just wait, break the liners in more (I've only skied in them about 10 times), and hope that they would pack out a bit more?

Oh, yes, and I'm also trying the acetone trick that Dieter suggested (inject some acetone inside the foam liner with a syringe to soften the foam a bit). So far, with limited success, but maybe I should wait more.

@Wendy @Philpug @Muleski Sorry to bother you, but I believe you might have had quite a bit of experience with BootDoc liners. I wonder what your advice would be (other than go and see a bootfitter, which I will probably do soon anyway)?

View attachment 163158 View attachment 163159

Just looking at the liners out the Boot Doc is significantly wider and more volume. Are they even the same size? Use the one that works - the stock one. What's the point of suffering?
Then maybe figure out what to do with the other.

 

[Muleski]

I’ve been tied up. Will respond tomorrow. Something is not right here. And agree, DO NOT touch that boot to accommodate that BD liner.

 

[Ivan]

Just looking at the liners out the Boot Doc is significantly wider and more volume. Are they even the same size? Use the one that works - the stock one. What's the point of suffering?
Then maybe figure out what to do with the other.

Yes, as surprising as it may seem, they are the same size.

 

[Muleski]

I'm at a bit of a loss on this one. I don't know either of the fitters, haven't seem Ivan's foot and can only guess.

Here's my "family" experience with BD:

1. About 10 years ago, our daughter retired from her "real" race career. And she moved from a Lange ZA/ZB to a Lange 130RS. Her boot fitter has been fire her since she was about seven, so at that point 15+ years. Lots of boots, serious race boots, multiple boots each season. SL boots, GS boots, speed boots. She told him that she finally wanted to get into a reasonably comfortable boot, with decent performance. She was also sick of losing toenails, etc. She upsized in shell length, whereas she had been squeezed into the Z's. Her fitter at that point had a LOT of BD experience. I was not there when her foamed her liners, but I was on the phone when she called me on day one. I should have also mentioned that tother than the very occasional beer league, town league or charity fundraiser race, her race skis stayed in the closet. He primary "go to" became a 180cm Bonafide.
She LOVED the boot setup. I'd hear her say how she rarely unbuckled the boots, how they were comfortable bit had a "great fit." This was not the same as her race boots, which we always unbuckled until she was at the top of the hill. So...all thumbs up. She put about 800 days on those liners, then had the same liner foamed by the same guy. Same results.

2. 8 years ago, in my late fifties, I decided that I didn't really need to ski in a Doberman WC150. Just had enough of that type of boot. 40+ years of real race boots. Now, I should mention that I had 3-4 boots with foam liners over the years and most were just brutal. Like cement. Cold and uncomfortable. Too rigid. I had a leather foam liner made I believe by Strolz in my last pair of Lange's, and they were pretty tolerable, but not great for all day, everywhere skiing. So....I decided to go back to Lange and step down to a Lange 140RS. Same fitter as my daughter. He knows me, has skied with me probably 100 days. So we discussed what I wanted, at my age, and with my relatively decent physical shape, etc. My foot presents very few problems. Instep is pretty high, have a bit of a sixth toe on both. Size 10E feet. He skis in a BD, and at the already had them as well as Intuition and ZipFit. He foamed me, and before doing so we discussed "the plan" quite a bit. Did a want a "race fit?" Well depends on what the customer and fitter consider that to be. He's fitting 22 year old USST tech skiers....that's not me. We also discussed where I'd be skiing. All over the globe. Skis? A wide horizon. My big skis were 196cm Bodacious. I also had 195cm GS skis, and.....a lot of variety. Terrain, again, you name it. So.....let's talk about the ideal. For me, it's tone able to close the shells, and not screw around with the buckle tension like a mad man. Have a nice firm fit. I want a tight angle, I want to have some room around my toes. I want no pain over my instep. I also not want to feel like I need to rip my boots off my feel immediately if I stop for a cup of coffee. And...we talk about my previous old school foam liners and how much they sucked. And how the Stroltz did not...but looked huge. I can't recall the model that we used. It was NOT the WC. He used toe caps, gave me some room over the top of my foot. We used a tongue that was foamed. I also have the original tongue, which is pretty nice. As I recall he used some secret sauce for the actual foam. I think a mix of the really firm race stuff that they make and as we joked "the regular Joey" stuff. He worked with me for a long time during the foaming to, I guess ensure that there were no voids, that thaws right. I think I was in the boot for about an hour. As I have posted before...game changing. Amazing. Great fit. At first I though that they were almost too comfortable. Our kids...both high-level coaches, said "Holy S***, Dad, you look great. Never seen you ski better." And.... having skied since I could walk, I'm OK with my skiing. So A+++.

3. My wife was the third one. She is a damn god skier, also with a race background, but she is absolutely NOT an equipment obsessive type. She thinks some of the discussions on here, which I'll relay to her are pretty much insane. She skis whatever the kids bring home for her, and whatever they are, skis them well. So our daughter says: "Mom could use new boots." Mom says "Nope, I love my boots." Discussion ensues that the boots are at the end of life. So we go through the whole process. Our boot guy says: "OK....I have these set aside for you. Check out the lining of these liners. BD's, nice and cozy." The liners are like a super thin micro fleece. Mom gets foamed, mom loves her knew boots, Mom continues kill it in comfort. Both her boots and mine have many hundreds of days of use and the liners have not degraded at all.

4. Our now 35 year old son. He's in Europe, doing some serious equipment work for some serious athletes. He NEVER takes care of himself. All about his athletes. He can ski in and on anything, and most of his 250+ days a year on snow are work. I can't recall where they were training. Summer. Zermatt? Saas Fe? I know that he took a couple of days for some factory visits. And in the process he picked up some BD WC liners, which the "boys" were putting a few WC skiers into. His boots at the time {his real non work boots} were something like Dobie 160's. These guys obviously knew their stuff and son is fluent in German. The end result is that the liners are great, but no way would a normal mortal ski them all day without getting some relief by removing them. As he says it's a super firm fit. No voids. Instant boot response, and very little way to alter them. He tends to use a ZipFit in his real boots {the Dobies} and in whatever he's using for coaching boots. I think he has 2-3 pairs and the oldest may have 1000+ days on them. He seems to prefer the ZipFits for all of his skiing. And when he has a day off, or has the occasional three days in Europe with his GF, he skis a LOT, and it's rarely on piste. I asked him about his BD's, and he says "If I were still an athlete, maybe. But the stock liner in that Dobie is pretty damn good."


SO......Like I said, I don't know your fitter, I don't know the conversation, or what you asked for. Nor what you got. I was sold by my fitter in terms of "you are never going to ski better, and you will never have been more comfortable." This is a friend. He's also a former European EC Cup skier, before coming here to college and staying. I'm not somebody off the street with him. And, taking a bit of a risk, there is nothing "aspirational"about my needs to our conversations. I'm not the type who presents as thinking that I need the "best" skis because they'll make me better, right? Like I said, I'm OK with my skiing. "getting better" is not a factor.

The picture of the stock liner versus the BD just looks REALLY ODD to me. I do not have my ski stuff nearby or else I'd take a look at it. I do not recall the BD's looking as different dimensionally as that. A bit "bigger", yes. A touch taller. A bit more volume sitting there.

I don't think that what you're going through would be close to acceptable by Wintersteiger and whoever is the project manager for BD. That's NOT why you bought them. They do NOT, in our collective thousands of days of use, "break in". Maybe a tiny bit in days 1-3. Maybe. None of us have had any pain whatsoever. And I hope it's clear that they fit "right". Nobody is swimming it them. When I said our daughter upsized, she was squeezed into a tiny boot for SL and GS, and full shell size bigger for speed, but still hours of grinding. She's in a what most would consider a very tight fit in her RS's.

My strong guess is that the only solution is to get refoamed. I THINK that a good, reputable, honest fitter would be the first to say "Oh, Boy......Epic fail here" and offer to completely reform new liners. I assume that you're paying for them, and paying what I consider to be a lot of money. I would start there and have the conversation about HOW you want them to fit. You don't need your BD's to fit like Hirscher's did. I'm obviously very curious about even the size of the liner.

If you don't get anywhere there, I'd contact BD. I have never checked, but a website haste read you to the right people. Then I'd see if you can get another set of liners, and have them foamed by another fitter whom they recommend.

I don't know what else to say. It sounds so completely different from every other experience that I'M familiar with with the product. Just sort of shocks me.

Is the inside dimension....length wise...the same or darn close for the stock liner and the BD? The BD just LOOKS big.

DO NOT let anybody star to grind your boot to accommodate that BD liner. No. No. No. The grinding if needed takes place before the foaming, has to sequence that way. Again, I don't know your fitter. He might be tremendous. Hope so, and hope he works with you to fix this. But grinding the boot is not the way to do.

Sorry to ramble. Perhaps some of the others mentioned ho foam these for a living will weigh it.

Good luck. You'll get it straightened out, somehow!!!

 

[Wendy]

I'm at a bit of a loss on this one. I don't know either of the fitters, haven't seem Ivan's foot and can only guess.

Here's my "family" experience with BD:

1. About 10 years ago, our daughter retired from her "real" race career. And she moved from a Lange ZA/ZB to a Lange 130RS. Her boot fitter has been fire her since she was about seven, so at that point 15+ years. Lots of boots, serious race boots, multiple boots each season. SL boots, GS boots, speed boots. She told him that she finally wanted to get into a reasonably comfortable boot, with decent performance. She was also sick of losing toenails, etc. She upsized in shell length, whereas she had been squeezed into the Z's. Her fitter at that point had a LOT of BD experience. I was not there when her foamed her liners, but I was on the phone when she called me on day one. I should have also mentioned that tother than the very occasional beer league, town league or charity fundraiser race, her race skis stayed in the closet. He primary "go to" became a 180cm Bonafide.
She LOVED the boot setup. I'd hear her say how she rarely unbuckled the boots, how they were comfortable bit had a "great fit." This was not the same as her race boots, which we always unbuckled until she was at the top of the hill. So...all thumbs up. She put about 800 days on those liners, then had the same liner foamed by the same guy. Same results.

2. 8 years ago, in my late fifties, I decided that I didn't really need to ski in a Doberman WC150. Just had enough of that type of boot. 40+ years of real race boots. Now, I should mention that I had 3-4 boots with foam liners over the years and most were just brutal. Like cement. Cold and uncomfortable. Too rigid. I had a leather foam liner made I believe by Strolz in my last pair of Lange's, and they were pretty tolerable, but not great for all day, everywhere skiing. So....I decided to go back to Lange and step down to a Lange 140RS. Same fitter as my daughter. He knows me, has skied with me probably 100 days. So we discussed what I wanted, at my age, and with my relatively decent physical shape, etc. My foot presents very few problems. Instep is pretty high, have a bit of a sixth toe on both. Size 10E feet. He skis in a BD, and at the already had them as well as Intuition and ZipFit. He foamed me, and before doing so we discussed "the plan" quite a bit. Did a want a "race fit?" Well depends on what the customer and fitter consider that to be. He's fitting 22 year old USST tech skiers....that's not me. We also discussed where I'd be skiing. All over the globe. Skis? A wide horizon. My big skis were 196cm Bodacious. I also had 195cm GS skis, and.....a lot of variety. Terrain, again, you name it. So.....let's talk about the ideal. For me, it's tone able to close the shells, and not screw around with the buckle tension like a mad man. Have a nice firm fit. I want a tight angle, I want to have some room around my toes. I want no pain over my instep. I also not want to feel like I need to rip my boots off my feel immediately if I stop for a cup of coffee. And...we talk about my previous old school foam liners and how much they sucked. And how the Stroltz did not...but looked huge. I can't recall the model that we used. It was NOT the WC. He used toe caps, gave me some room over the top of my foot. We used a tongue that was foamed. I also have the original tongue, which is pretty nice. As I recall he used some secret sauce for the actual foam. I think a mix of the really firm race stuff that they make and as we joked "the regular Joey" stuff. He worked with me for a long time during the foaming to, I guess ensure that there were no voids, that thaws right. I think I was in the boot for about an hour. As I have posted before...game changing. Amazing. Great fit. At first I though that they were almost too comfortable. Our kids...both high-level coaches, said "Holy S***, Dad, you look great. Never seen you ski better." And.... having skied since I could walk, I'm OK with my skiing. So A+++.

3. My wife was the third one. She is a damn god skier, also with a race background, but she is absolutely NOT an equipment obsessive type. She thinks some of the discussions on here, which I'll relay to her are pretty much insane. She skis whatever the kids bring home for her, and whatever they are, skis them well. So our daughter says: "Mom could use new boots." Mom says "Nope, I love my boots." Discussion ensues that the boots are at the end of life. So we go through the whole process. Our boot guy says: "OK....I have these set aside for you. Check out the lining of these liners. BD's, nice and cozy." The liners are like a super thin micro fleece. Mom gets foamed, mom loves her knew boots, Mom continues kill it in comfort. Both her boots and mine have many hundreds of days of use and the liners have not degraded at all.

4. Our now 35 year old son. He's in Europe, doing some serious equipment work for some serious athletes. He NEVER takes care of himself. All about his athletes. He can ski in and on anything, and most of his 250+ days a year on snow are work. I can't recall where they were training. Summer. Zermatt? Saas Fe? I know that he took a couple of days for some factory visits. And in the process he picked up some BD WC liners, which the "boys" were putting a few WC skiers into. His boots at the time {his real non work boots} were something like Dobie 160's. These guys obviously knew their stuff and son is fluent in German. The end result is that the liners are great, but no way would a normal mortal ski them all day without getting some relief by removing them. As he says it's a super firm fit. No voids. Instant boot response, and very little way to alter them. He tends to use a ZipFit in his real boots {the Dobies} and in whatever he's using for coaching boots. I think he has 2-3 pairs and the oldest may have 1000+ days on them. He seems to prefer the ZipFits for all of his skiing. And when he has a day off, or has the occasional three days in Europe with his GF, he skis a LOT, and it's rarely on piste. I asked him about his BD's, and he says "If I were still an athlete, maybe. But the stock liner in that Dobie is pretty damn good."


SO......Like I said, I don't know your fitter, I don't know the conversation, or what you asked for. Nor what you got. I was sold by my fitter in terms of "you are never going to ski better, and you will never have been more comfortable." This is a friend. He's also a former European EC Cup skier, before coming here to college and staying. I'm not somebody off the street with him. And, taking a bit of a risk, there is nothing "aspirational"about my needs to our conversations. I'm not the type who presents as thinking that I need the "best" skis because they'll make me better, right? Like I said, I'm OK with my skiing. "getting better" is not a factor.

The picture of the stock liner versus the BD just looks REALLY ODD to me. I do not have my ski stuff nearby or else I'd take a look at it. I do not recall the BD's looking as different dimensionally as that. A bit "bigger", yes. A touch taller. A bit more volume sitting there.

I don't think that what you're going through would be close to acceptable by Wintersteiger and whoever is the project manager for BD. That's NOT why you bought them. They do NOT, in our collective thousands of days of use, "break in". Maybe a tiny bit in days 1-3. Maybe. None of us have had any pain whatsoever. And I hope it's clear that they fit "right". Nobody is swimming it them. When I said our daughter upsized, she was squeezed into a tiny boot for SL and GS, and full shell size bigger for speed, but still hours of grinding. She's in a what most would consider a very tight fit in her RS's.

My strong guess is that the only solution is to get refoamed. I THINK that a good, reputable, honest fitter would be the first to say "Oh, Boy......Epic fail here" and offer to completely reform new liners. I assume that you're paying for them, and paying what I consider to be a lot of money. I would start there and have the conversation about HOW you want them to fit. You don't need your BD's to fit like Hirscher's did. I'm obviously very curious about even the size of the liner.

If you don't get anywhere there, I'd contact BD. I have never checked, but a website haste read you to the right people. Then I'd see if you can get another set of liners, and have them foamed by another fitter whom they recommend.

I don't know what else to say. It sounds so completely different from every other experience that I'M familiar with with the product. Just sort of shocks me.

Is the inside dimension....length wise...the same or darn close for the stock liner and the BD? The BD just LOOKS big.

DO NOT let anybody star to grind your boot to accommodate that BD liner. No. No. No. The grinding if needed takes place before the foaming, has to sequence that way. Again, I don't know your fitter. He might be tremendous. Hope so, and hope he works with you to fix this. But grinding the boot is not the way to do.

Sorry to ramble. Perhaps some of the others mentioned ho foam these for a living will weigh it.

Good luck. You'll get it straightened out, somehow!!!

I recall that BD has several types of foam liners, and one is (was?) more of a “comfort fit” type liner, with a softer microfleece-type lining, and a softer, more forgiving foam. If I had to have a BD liner made again, I’d go for that type.

People’s experiences with these liners are also affected by their skiing backgrounds. Somebody used to a race boot fit would be more tolerant of a more rigid, close-fitting liner than a recreational skier.

 

[Ivan]

I'm at a bit of a loss on this one. I don't know either of the fitters, haven't seem Ivan's foot and can only guess.

Here's my "family" experience with BD:

1. About 10 years ago, our daughter retired from her "real" race career. And she moved from a Lange ZA/ZB to a Lange 130RS. Her boot fitter has been fire her since she was about seven, so at that point 15+ years. Lots of boots, serious race boots, multiple boots each season. SL boots, GS boots, speed boots. She told him that she finally wanted to get into a reasonably comfortable boot, with decent performance. She was also sick of losing toenails, etc. She upsized in shell length, whereas she had been squeezed into the Z's. Her fitter at that point had a LOT of BD experience. I was not there when her foamed her liners, but I was on the phone when she called me on day one. I should have also mentioned that tother than the very occasional beer league, town league or charity fundraiser race, her race skis stayed in the closet. He primary "go to" became a 180cm Bonafide.
She LOVED the boot setup. I'd hear her say how she rarely unbuckled the boots, how they were comfortable bit had a "great fit." This was not the same as her race boots, which we always unbuckled until she was at the top of the hill. So...all thumbs up. She put about 800 days on those liners, then had the same liner foamed by the same guy. Same results.

2. 8 years ago, in my late fifties, I decided that I didn't really need to ski in a Doberman WC150. Just had enough of that type of boot. 40+ years of real race boots. Now, I should mention that I had 3-4 boots with foam liners over the years and most were just brutal. Like cement. Cold and uncomfortable. Too rigid. I had a leather foam liner made I believe by Strolz in my last pair of Lange's, and they were pretty tolerable, but not great for all day, everywhere skiing. So....I decided to go back to Lange and step down to a Lange 140RS. Same fitter as my daughter. He knows me, has skied with me probably 100 days. So we discussed what I wanted, at my age, and with my relatively decent physical shape, etc. My foot presents very few problems. Instep is pretty high, have a bit of a sixth toe on both. Size 10E feet. He skis in a BD, and at the already had them as well as Intuition and ZipFit. He foamed me, and before doing so we discussed "the plan" quite a bit. Did a want a "race fit?" Well depends on what the customer and fitter consider that to be. He's fitting 22 year old USST tech skiers....that's not me. We also discussed where I'd be skiing. All over the globe. Skis? A wide horizon. My big skis were 196cm Bodacious. I also had 195cm GS skis, and.....a lot of variety. Terrain, again, you name it. So.....let's talk about the ideal. For me, it's tone able to close the shells, and not screw around with the buckle tension like a mad man. Have a nice firm fit. I want a tight angle, I want to have some room around my toes. I want no pain over my instep. I also not want to feel like I need to rip my boots off my feel immediately if I stop for a cup of coffee. And...we talk about my previous old school foam liners and how much they sucked. And how the Stroltz did not...but looked huge. I can't recall the model that we used. It was NOT the WC. He used toe caps, gave me some room over the top of my foot. We used a tongue that was foamed. I also have the original tongue, which is pretty nice. As I recall he used some secret sauce for the actual foam. I think a mix of the really firm race stuff that they make and as we joked "the regular Joey" stuff. He worked with me for a long time during the foaming to, I guess ensure that there were no voids, that thaws right. I think I was in the boot for about an hour. As I have posted before...game changing. Amazing. Great fit. At first I though that they were almost too comfortable. Our kids...both high-level coaches, said "Holy S***, Dad, you look great. Never seen you ski better." And.... having skied since I could walk, I'm OK with my skiing. So A+++.

3. My wife was the third one. She is a damn god skier, also with a race background, but she is absolutely NOT an equipment obsessive type. She thinks some of the discussions on here, which I'll relay to her are pretty much insane. She skis whatever the kids bring home for her, and whatever they are, skis them well. So our daughter says: "Mom could use new boots." Mom says "Nope, I love my boots." Discussion ensues that the boots are at the end of life. So we go through the whole process. Our boot guy says: "OK....I have these set aside for you. Check out the lining of these liners. BD's, nice and cozy." The liners are like a super thin micro fleece. Mom gets foamed, mom loves her knew boots, Mom continues kill it in comfort. Both her boots and mine have many hundreds of days of use and the liners have not degraded at all.

4. Our now 35 year old son. He's in Europe, doing some serious equipment work for some serious athletes. He NEVER takes care of himself. All about his athletes. He can ski in and on anything, and most of his 250+ days a year on snow are work. I can't recall where they were training. Summer. Zermatt? Saas Fe? I know that he took a couple of days for some factory visits. And in the process he picked up some BD WC liners, which the "boys" were putting a few WC skiers into. His boots at the time {his real non work boots} were something like Dobie 160's. These guys obviously knew their stuff and son is fluent in German. The end result is that the liners are great, but no way would a normal mortal ski them all day without getting some relief by removing them. As he says it's a super firm fit. No voids. Instant boot response, and very little way to alter them. He tends to use a ZipFit in his real boots {the Dobies} and in whatever he's using for coaching boots. I think he has 2-3 pairs and the oldest may have 1000+ days on them. He seems to prefer the ZipFits for all of his skiing. And when he has a day off, or has the occasional three days in Europe with his GF, he skis a LOT, and it's rarely on piste. I asked him about his BD's, and he says "If I were still an athlete, maybe. But the stock liner in that Dobie is pretty damn good."


SO......Like I said, I don't know your fitter, I don't know the conversation, or what you asked for. Nor what you got. I was sold by my fitter in terms of "you are never going to ski better, and you will never have been more comfortable." This is a friend. He's also a former European EC Cup skier, before coming here to college and staying. I'm not somebody off the street with him. And, taking a bit of a risk, there is nothing "aspirational"about my needs to our conversations. I'm not the type who presents as thinking that I need the "best" skis because they'll make me better, right? Like I said, I'm OK with my skiing. "getting better" is not a factor.

The picture of the stock liner versus the BD just looks REALLY ODD to me. I do not have my ski stuff nearby or else I'd take a look at it. I do not recall the BD's looking as different dimensionally as that. A bit "bigger", yes. A touch taller. A bit more volume sitting there.

I don't think that what you're going through would be close to acceptable by Wintersteiger and whoever is the project manager for BD. That's NOT why you bought them. They do NOT, in our collective thousands of days of use, "break in". Maybe a tiny bit in days 1-3. Maybe. None of us have had any pain whatsoever. And I hope it's clear that they fit "right". Nobody is swimming it them. When I said our daughter upsized, she was squeezed into a tiny boot for SL and GS, and full shell size bigger for speed, but still hours of grinding. She's in a what most would consider a very tight fit in her RS's.

My strong guess is that the only solution is to get refoamed. I THINK that a good, reputable, honest fitter would be the first to say "Oh, Boy......Epic fail here" and offer to completely reform new liners. I assume that you're paying for them, and paying what I consider to be a lot of money. I would start there and have the conversation about HOW you want them to fit. You don't need your BD's to fit like Hirscher's did. I'm obviously very curious about even the size of the liner.

If you don't get anywhere there, I'd contact BD. I have never checked, but a website haste read you to the right people. Then I'd see if you can get another set of liners, and have them foamed by another fitter whom they recommend.

I don't know what else to say. It sounds so completely different from every other experience that I'M familiar with with the product. Just sort of shocks me.

Is the inside dimension....length wise...the same or darn close for the stock liner and the BD? The BD just LOOKS big.

DO NOT let anybody star to grind your boot to accommodate that BD liner. No. No. No. The grinding if needed takes place before the foaming, has to sequence that way. Again, I don't know your fitter. He might be tremendous. Hope so, and hope he works with you to fix this. But grinding the boot is not the way to do.

Sorry to ramble. Perhaps some of the others mentioned ho foam these for a living will weigh it.

Good luck. You'll get it straightened out, somehow!!!

@Muleski Thanks a lot, this is actually really, really helpful! I think I've said this before, but I can repeat this once again: as someone who comes from a skiing family, but not a ski racing family (and a family that never had any experience with boot fitters, etc.), your posts are always very insightful.

A few points. First, regarding length. Me feet measure right in between 27.5 and 28 (probably something like 278 mm); my street size is 10; my soccer shoe size is 9.5, and this one fits really, really tight (but without pain!). When I got the ZBs from Miguel, a former Spanish national team racer, in Ellicottville, he said that he could squeeze me in 25.5 if I were racing full time, but for everyday skiing with occasional racing he'd put me in 26.5. He said that his feet are the same length as mine and he also skis in 26.5.

Now, as far as the length of the BD and stock liners goes, on the outside they are identical. Both are 26/26.5. Inside, the BD feels a bit tighter. When I skied in the BD, my toes were touching the front of the liner; in the stock ones, there is 1 or 2 mm of room (well, I might need to eventually downsize to 25.5 if I keep using the stock ones... but that's a separate story).

As far as discussions with the fitter and expectations go, I think the fitter originally wanted to put me in the performance liners, which also have the world cup foam but don't have the exit tubes. I asked for the world cup liners. Well, maybe to some extent it was my fault and I should have listened to his recommendation... But, while he warned that the world cup liners are stiff and may feel really tight, I don't think "really tight" equals "painful" or "impossible to buckle." He told me that some of his clients had to use acetone to deal with hot spots (inject acetone inside the liner to soften the foam a bit), and I was fine with that. But, again, a couple of hot spots is not the same as the liner that prevents the boot from buckling. In fact, the two halves of the shell barely overlap when I put the liner in, if you see what I mean.

Again, I understand that the race fit is supposed to be tight, and maybe I should have been smarter and should have chosen a softer liner. But "tight" is one thing; wanting to remove the boots 5 minutes after I put them on, on the very first chairlift ride, when they are still unbuckled, because the pressure is (almost) unbearable, is another.

I just emailed the shop where I had them foamed earlier today. Last time they responded to my email very promptly. I'll see where it goes; if it leads nowhere, I'll try to contact BD/Wintersteiger.

 

[givethepigeye]

Have no real insight on your issue, but I tried to have some BD Foam liners made, sprung for the tongues as well. Flew across country to have them done, total whiff/waste. When it was suggested that we grind the boot to make some room - I left. Never got a follow-up email, knew I wasnt going back, wrote it off.

it really comes down to “the fitter/foamer“ and their level of attention to what you want and how many other duties they have in the shop while they are foaming YOU

I’d also add I’m just skiing ZipFits after the stock liners in the Lange’s got 50-75 days on them.. seems to get me what I need, but don’t race. <- I have enough drama outside of skiing to get into that pond

 

[James]

Yeah this maybe the first I’ve ever heard of considering modifying a shell to accommodate a liner when the stock liner works fine. I would think BD themselves would consider this wrong. Makes no sense anyway.

Scrap it and get some redress for another. Maybe even just a pair of foam tongues for the Langes. But keep the stock ones.

 

[Wendy]

Again, I understand that the race fit is supposed to be tight, and maybe I should have been smarter and should have chosen a softer liner. But "tight" is one thing; wanting to remove the boots 5 minutes after I put them on, on the very first chairlift ride, when they are still unbuckled, because the pressure is (almost) unbearable, is another.

This was exactly the problem I had with my last BD liners. I remember a trip to Alta where my feet were in agony at the end of the week. I skied with my boots unbuckled all week but that wasn’t enough to relieve the pressure on my feet. I wore Birkenstocks all that summer because my feet were so tired and sore from ski season.

I think the fitter needs to be very attentive to how much foam goes into the liner. I believe it’s possible to put in too much. The heat from the chemical reaction of the foam mixing might temporarily stretch the boot’s shell, accommodating that foam, but after things cool down, oy vey. Just a guess, though.

The foam liner I had made with Billy Kaplan was a bit different experience. He heavily capped my toes and instep, and maybe around my ankle a little. He also had me move my feet around during the foaming process, flexing in the boot, etc. He was careful to cut off the foam supply, as well. That liner appears a lot more svelt.

 

[AmyPJ]

When I had BD liners foamed the first time, the fitter had me wear rather thick socks (and yes, capped the toes.) They were pretty awesome. The second time, I insisted on wearing my normal socks and the results were rather excruciating.

 

[Muleski]

The fact that I have learned, specific to BD, and this is NOT just my family's experience, is that the specific experience that the fitter/foamer has with BD is really important. When I asked my friend how many he had foamed, he said something like "Quite a few....maybe a couple of hundred. I've got it figured out."

My impression here is that these liners were packed with the firm foam, as much as could be squeezed in that liner. With no toe caps and no instep cap, they could be exceedingly tight. I also seem to recall sitting with the boots on for a LONG time so that there was no more possible expansion of the foam. I remember it seemed to take forever, but my guy said "this is important."

My daughter and wife have that comfort fit liner. I don't know if they make it any more. The warm fleecy liner. Again the fitter knows his "S***" and I know that our daughter has a firmer foam mix than that liner normally has. My wife's is a touch firmer. They both think they are the greatest thing ever. I agree about mine.

Our son got the full on WC treatment. By a WC tech, doing WC athletes at the same time. He says there are zero voids. Can close the boots shells, etc. Not painful, but not cozy or close. Just real firm. He rarely skis in them. He doesn't race any more, and when free skiing it's normally on soft snow or some powder, and on wider skis.

When I mentioned to our guy that he'd had these done in Europe, he said that he had a lot of people ask for that liner and the really firm foam and tongue, and he almost always convinces them otherwise.

I think that regardless of what you said as the customer, they did not set you up properly. To be blunt, I think they botched the process.

And good comment about the socks. I was put in a uniform, but thick sock, No extra padding but thicker than my ultra thin ski sock, and caps over toes and instep. My son, in the real WC was foamed barefoot.

Good luck. You'll get this resolved. It's not supposed to be this way.

 

[Ivan]

@Wendy @Muleski Thanks for your input! I certainly remember using the toe cap; I do not, however, remember using the instep cap. I was wearing my usual ski socks, which are pretty thin (the Mikaela Shiffrin Smartwool model).

For now, I got the response from Dieter that he talked to the BD head boot fitter, and the guy said that the WC liners are supposed to be very thick and that he had similar issues. He ended up using acetone and a mallet to soften the foam and break the liners in. I can believe that the BD WC liners can be thick; I'm not sure if they are supposed to be this thick. I still tend to think that something is not right here.

Anyway, I am supposed to go to the fitter some time next week. We'll see if this suggestion can be implemented; if not, he said he could do the Performance liners. However, he hasn't mentioned yet whether I will have to pay for them or not (I hope not!); we'll see.

 

[Toddski13]

Yes, as surprising as it may seem, they are the same size.

Hi Ivan, I'm Todd, the product manager for BootDoc. I'm sorry to hear that you're a) struggling with finding boots that really fit and work well for you and b) that the BD liner isn't helping, at least not now. To start, I have some questions and want to cover some basics.

- Any foot inside a ski boot can take almost no compression or pressure on the bones without pain resulting. Boot fitting, especially with the plug boots you have been using is about accommodating the bones where space is required while generally leaving areas of the shell or liner that interface with soft tissue (which typically can be compressed up to 25% before pain comes into play) un-modified.

- Understanding that your had your foam liner injected for your ZB shell, I'm curious as to whom did the fitting work for that boot and whether it was the same person who did the fitting work for your ZA and did they use the ZB as a template for modifying the ZA? While I disagree with Wendy's characterization of BD foam being rigid (even the WC pressure foam), there is no doubt that the liner doesn't potentially swap from boot to boot unless the shell is very similar in terms of last, last shape, modification locations, and modification size. Additionally, none of the BD foams react with acetone (that's how you know they're different than the rock hard factory foam liner foam) so that approach isn't going to help.

- The proper order of operations for fitting and foaming, especially for a plug boot, should be to make sure that all shell modifications are done first and then foam the liner (you'll want to have your footbed checked before the fitting starts). I read, very clearly, that you have a low volume foot. A plug boot is the natural choice for that scenario, but low volume doesn't mean that you don't need shell mods to accommodate some of the bones of your foot. Addressing those spots first is critical. From there, the liner can be foamed to take up volume, which sounds like it would be ideal for you.

Based on all of this, I'm guessing that the issue isn't the liner itself, but rather the interface between the liner and your new shell. That doesn't mean it will ever work in that shell though, so it's not a solution either. I'll PM you to see if we can figure out a good solution from the BootDoc side to help get you back on track.

 

[Toddski13]

The fact that I have learned, specific to BD, and this is NOT just my family's experience, is that the specific experience that the fitter/foamer has with BD is really important. When I asked my friend how many he had foamed, he said something like "Quite a few....maybe a couple of hundred. I've got it figured out."

My impression here is that these liners were packed with the firm foam, as much as could be squeezed in that liner. With no toe caps and no instep cap, they could be exceedingly tight. I also seem to recall sitting with the boots on for a LONG time so that there was no more possible expansion of the foam. I remember it seemed to take forever, but my guy said "this is important."

My daughter and wife have that comfort fit liner. I don't know if they make it any more. The warm fleecy liner. Again the fitter knows his "S***" and I know that our daughter has a firmer foam mix than that liner normally has. My wife's is a touch firmer. They both think they are the greatest thing ever. I agree about mine.

Our son got the full on WC treatment. By a WC tech, doing WC athletes at the same time. He says there are zero voids. Can close the boots shells, etc. Not painful, but not cozy or close. Just real firm. He rarely skis in them. He doesn't race any more, and when free skiing it's normally on soft snow or some powder, and on wider skis.

When I mentioned to our guy that he'd had these done in Europe, he said that he had a lot of people ask for that liner and the really firm foam and tongue, and he almost always convinces them otherwise.

I think that regardless of what you said as the customer, they did not set you up properly. To be blunt, I think they botched the process.

And good comment about the socks. I was put in a uniform, but thick sock, No extra padding but thicker than my ultra thin ski sock, and caps over toes and instep. My son, in the real WC was foamed barefoot.

Good luck. You'll get this resolved. It's not supposed to be this way.

Muleski, who did your BD liners? Birch?

 

[Muleski]

@Toddski13

No. Will PM you.