Boot fit and liner sleeve

[vtmecheng]

And you can pad the tongue yourself, really easy.

I haven't found much in the way of how to do this more permanently.

A cuff spoiler will increase the forward lean of the boot, better to pad the tongue

I have read that a tongue pad is better in multiple threads here. Thinking about it, wouldn't that really depend on the individual situation? How tight the top buckle is will change where your shin sits and, therefore, the angle of your shin. I have to think that ski boots are designed to be tightened to about the middle position (maybe that's a poor assumption). Since most of what changes the lower leg diameter is at the back and sides, the calf muscle and fat around it, making the top tighter will result in a greater angle between shin and foot. Since my leg is long enough that bottom of my calf is just into the boot, I have to tighten the top of my boot more and that would move me more into the back. In my case, the spoiler would act to take up the space at the back that would normally be filled with muscle and put me into an angle that was intended by the boot manufacture. I am sure that I am missing something here though and welcome all info on this since I am definitely wet behind the ears when it comes to boot fit and design.

 

[cantunamunch]

I haven't found much in the way of how to do this more permanently.


I have read that a tongue pad is better in multiple threads here. Thinking about it, wouldn't that really depend on the individual situation? How tight the top buckle is will change where your shin sits and, therefore, the angle of your shin.

Simply put, where your shin sits should be governed by the (fixed) position of the heel and the boot spine. The cuff tension is not a driving factor to shin position. In order to make sure that is so, we use a spoiler.

Your need for a spoiler (above the heel) and your need for a tongue fix (in front of the heel) are separate issues.

Do not conflate them.

 

[Teumie]

interesting ...

I was actually contemplating moving my buckles at the top to make them more tight (maybe I got skinnier, lost calve muscles, thinner socks, liner getting thinner, ...) but wasn't sure how that would impact my "position" on the skis.
Obviously it would make the calve section more tight but for some reason I also thought that that would make me ski more upright as I will have less room to move my shin forward. if that makes sense ...

It appears I am a fairly upright skier (same with surfting) and am sort of worried that by tightening the top buckles more, that will be even more the case up to a point where it becomes a 'bad' thing

 

[vtmecheng]

Simply put, where your shin sits should be governed by the (fixed) position of the heel and the boot spine. The cuff tension is not relevant here.

Your need for a spoiler and your need for a tongue fix are separate issues. Do not conflate them.

Here is where my thinking is. Let's say two people with the same foot size but drastically different leg lengths or calf sizes try on the same boot. The boot spine is fixed, only the front of the cuff opens or closes. Opening the cuff puts the tibia further from the spine and closing moves it towards the spine. A larger calf will sit against the upper spine of the boot and the top of the cuff will be opened more to accommodate the leg diameter. This means that the part of the boot that the tibia pushes against is further away from the spine and the ankle flexion must increase. Conversely, a smaller calf will mean the cuff is tightened up more, moving the tibia closer to the spine (and less ankle flexion) because there is less flesh between the spine and tibia. Based on this rational (and assuming that both people need the same amount of ankle flexion) the person with a smaller calf muscle at the top of the cuff will need a spoiler in order to mimic the larger calf muscle of the other person and achieve the same ankle flexion. Again, maybe I'm missing a piece or two here and, if so, I want to better understand what those are.

 

[KingGrump]

Food for thought.

 

[cantunamunch]

the person with a smaller calf muscle at the top of the cuff will need a spoiler in order to mimic the larger calf muscle of the other person

Sure.

Again, forget the cuff tension. It is not the job of the cuff to put the calf against the spine; the body's reflexive action to seek 'upright' does that. You cannot get more upright than the spine -and-your calf dimension - allows.

How upright you actually want to be depends on your ankle range of motion.

and achieve the same ankle flexion.

There are no set angles of ankle flexion for everyone to achieve. The idea is to stay in balance with the least effort.

 

[vtmecheng]

I completely agree that everyone is different and the correct amount of ankle flexion is not the same. I was trying to show that with everything else kept the same, calf size and how much of the calf sits into the cuff will change the ankle flexion because that is the part of the leg that sits against the boot spine. This is also why a spoiler pushes a leg forward and why a tongue pad does less to influence ankle flexion (though it probably still does some due to slightly altering how the force is applied to the tongue but I haven't spent much time thinking about that yet). In my case, I have a lot of available ankle flexion so it more comes down to what will get my body into the proper position. One nice thing about things like spoilers is that it's easy to install and remove when on the mountain. I can try and decide if it works or a tongue pad will be better.

Again, maybe I'm way off base here. Many have spent a ton more time than I have thinking about all this and trying different things.

 

[Rod9301]

I haven't found much in the way of how to do this more permanently.


I have read that a tongue pad is better in multiple threads here. Thinking about it, wouldn't that really depend on the individual situation? How tight the top buckle is will change where your shin sits and, therefore, the angle of your shin. I have to think that ski boots are designed to be tightened to about the middle position (maybe that's a poor assumption). Since most of what changes the lower leg diameter is at the back and sides, the calf muscle and fat around it, making the top tighter will result in a greater angle between shin and foot. Since my leg is long enough that bottom of my calf is just into the boot, I have to tighten the top of my boot more and that would move me more into the back. In my case, the spoiler would act to take up the space at the back that would normally be filled with muscle and put me into an angle that was intended by the boot manufacture. I am sure that I am missing something here though and welcome all info on this since I am definitely wet behind the ears when it comes to boot fit and design.

Just put some thick foam and glue it.

And no matter what, putting stuff behind your calf will increase the forward lean. And more forward lean does not mean that you will not be in the back seat.

 

[KingGrump]

Again, maybe I'm way off base here. Many have spent a ton more time than I have thinking about all this and trying different things.

Review the video I linked above. Think about how the C3 & power are getting down to your skis. The clue is where he cut to soften the boot.

 

[vtmecheng]

Just put some thick foam and glue it.

And no matter what, putting stuff behind your calf will increase the forward lean. And more forward lean does not mean that you will not be in the back seat.

Think we are saying the same thing, more stuff between the shell and tibia results in more forward lean. The material doesn’t really matter, whether muscle, fat, or plastic.

 

[vtmecheng]

Review the video I linked above. Think about how the C3 & power are getting down to your skis. The clue is where he cut to soften the boot.

The way that I was thinking about it is that the video goes more into things like the force required to result in a defined flex and the overall boot ROM. That is definitely a big player in how much ankle flexion occurs when under load and an art that would take years of experience to begin to understand beyond the basement level basics (cut material away usually = less stiff or more ROM or both). Keeping the boot the same but changing the starting ankle angle with a spoiler will mean the final angle at a defined load will change in that same direction. Things get complicated because the changed angle will change the body position so loads and positions at moments in time when skiing will be changed. And I'm tapping out on even trying to speculate beyond that without doing a massive amount of research and experimentation. At some point, I just want to ski!

 

[KingGrump]

The way that I was thinking about it is that the video goes more into things like the force required to result in a defined flex and the overall boot ROM. That is definitely a big player in how much ankle flexion occurs when under load and an art that would take years of experience to begin to understand beyond the basement level basics (cut material away usually = less stiff or more ROM or both). Keeping the boot the same but changing the starting ankle angle with a spoiler will mean the final angle at a defined load will change in that same direction. Things get complicated because the changed angle will change the body position so loads and positions at moments in time when skiing will be changed. And I'm tapping out on even trying to speculate beyond that without doing a massive amount of research and experimentation. At some point, I just want to ski!

If you are looking at the front of the boot for salvation. You are barking up the wrong tree.

I had 3 pairs of Fischer vac boot since 2012. All of them were molded at 14°. The boots skied really well. Switched to a pair of Atomic WC 130 Pro. The boot came with a 16° spine shim. Not enough forward lean for me when I skied it. Switched to an 18° shim. Still not skiing well. Added a large spoiler. The boot now feels good. Set up my second pair the same way. I am happy.

Ignore the manufacturer specs. Stop the paralysis by analysis bit. Go ski the boot, you'll figure out what actually needs to be done.

 

[Rod9301]

Think we are saying the same thing, more stuff between the shell and tibia results in more forward lean. The material doesn’t really matter, whether muscle, fat, or plastic.

Most people when they say tibia they mean the bone in front of the lower leg. This will not change the forward lean.

 

[locknload]

Your boot unfortunately has too much volume for your anatomy
You need to go to a bootfitter that actually knows their stuff
And no a high school kid won’t cut it

you can jam all the stuff you want inside that shell to make it work

But the fact is the boot has way too much volume for your low volume foot

Yep. This X 1000

 

[vtmecheng]

Yep. This X 1000

I never disagreed with @Near Nyquist on this but I also don't want to drop hundreds more before at least trying a few things. If this doesn't work out then I will reassess for next year. This season has been crap here anyway so there isn't much skiing to be had.

Most people when they say tibia they mean the bone in front of the lower leg. This will not change the forward lean.

That is what I mean, the tibia bone that makes up the hard part of a shin. This is what pushes against the boot when you lean forward.

 

[locknload]

I never disagreed with @Near Nyquist on this but I also don't want to drop hundreds more before at least trying a few things. If this doesn't work out then I will reassess for next year. This season has been crap here anyway so there isn't much skiing to be had.


That is what I mean, the tibia bone that makes up the hard part of a shin. This is what pushes against the boot when you lean forward.

I would hazard a guess that almost everyone this board has, at one time or another, been in a boot that wasn't right for them. For me, I was in models that were fine for my foot but were a size too big and this was after many years of skiing. My .02...it is so difficult to retro-fit a boot to fit your foot if its not a good overall fit for your foot morphology out of the box. You may get to an "ok" solution and maybe that's good enough. Honestly, in just about every other aspect of skiing an "ok" solution in skis, jackets, gloves, helmets etc would be just fine. The one thing that just has to be dialed in is the boot and the liner inside of it. It is your contact point with the skis which contact the snow. Its about performance, comfort and feel. You can make a great argument to skimp on every other part of skiing..but boots are king....the alpha of all ski gear. Someone could take all my ski gear other than my boots and I'd sigh start thinking about replacement stuff. My boots..you'd have to pry from my cold, dead hands b/c its taken a lot of trial and error to finally get them perfect and it makes such a difference. YMMV.

 

[Teumie]

I have a feeling I need to look around for new / better / tighter boots for me.
Maybe end of season will have some sales, just need to find a good local bootfitter.
My friends that went to a bootfitter are complaining about sore feet after 15 minutes of skiing, whereas I'm fine in my boots, but with my new skis I seem to lack a bit of precision/sturdyness ...
So I'm not sure a local bootfitter will do ...

 

[vtmecheng]

I have a feeling I need to look around for new / better / tighter boots for me.
Maybe end of season will have some sales, just need to find a good local bootfitter.
My friends that went to a bootfitter are complaining about sore feet after 15 minutes of skiing, whereas I'm fine in my boots, but with my new skis I seem to lack a bit of precision/sturdyness ...
So I'm not sure a local bootfitter will do ...

I may be new to all this but I’ve already experienced 3 bad boot filters. One of them was even at a really highly rated store in Colorado when on a ski trip. I needed the fifth metatarsal area pushed out so I could actually finish my trip. He tried to tell me that I should be in a Mondo, when I have too much instep and calf room in a prime. Man was insistent to the point of being rude. Point is, it can seem almost impossible to find a good fitter and that’s especially true outside of the bigger mountain areas. Good luck and I hope you find someone and some great boots.

 

[Tony S]

He tried to tell me that I should be in a Mondo, when I have too much instep and calf room in a prime.

I don't know what that means.

 

[vtmecheng]

I don't know what that means.

I’m sorry, my brain and fingers didn’t connect. Magna, he said magna.