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Budget Boot for Expert Skier

Swiss Toni

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The proportional change of foot dimensions is described as allometry; increasing foot length is associated with a relative decrease in width and height dimensions of the foot (Mochimaru et al. 2000, Krauss et al. 2008). Isometric scaling would be a bad idea as humans don’t scale isometrically.
 

Seldomski

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When I got my boots, I measured my foot and figured out what 'last width' and 'mondo' would likely fit best. I also dug around and concluded that Lange SX 120 in 28.5 would probably fit my type of foot best.

This is what the boot fitter ended up using for me after trying a few other options.

However, if I had just bought that boot online and tried it on, I probably would have sent it back. There were quite a few mods required to make it fit right.

I did try on a few other models in the shop, but they were all much further away from a good fit than the Lange.

So in the end, I am very confident I am in the right boot. If I had tried to do it myself, I have no idea what I would be using now. Likely I would have nowhere near as a good a result and would be doubting whether the boot was right or not. So yes, there is value in doing some homework beforehand, but there is value in going through the full bootfitting process - especially for a ~10 day a season skier (who lives far from ski country).
 

SpeedyKevin

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What’s the bsl on that boot ?
265mm - length seems to be good, its the heel lock that was problematic for my wife. A combination of more cork (zipfit), shims, and footbed seemed to help a bit but she is still curious to how a tighter heel would translate on the slopes
 

KingGrump

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265mm - length seems to be good, its the heel lock that was problematic for my wife. A combination of more cork (zipfit), shims, and footbed seemed to help a bit but she is still curious to how a tighter heel would translate on the slopes

It may be technique related.

A women on our group had issues with her heel lifting. A slight modification to her technique eliminated most of it.

@LiquidFeet noticed something similar in her post here.
 

markojp

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It may be technique related.

A women on our group had issues with her heel lifting. A slight modification to her technique eliminated most of it.

@LiquidFeet noticed something similar in her post here.

Yep, if someone's been coached to roll up on the ball of their foot and crush the cuff, not much is going to hold the heel down.
 

SpeedyKevin

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It may be technique related.

A women on our group had issues with her heel lifting. A slight modification to her technique eliminated most of it.

@LiquidFeet noticed something similar in her post here.
Oohhh good point, I'll forward that to her! Should be said that several boot fitters in the mammoth area measured her smaller foot at 21.5 so thats why she was interested in trying the smaller boot. She did report having issues with the heel moving side to side but that all relatively went away after the bootfitter added cork and all that magic
 
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KingGrump

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That's an interesting exercise and I'm looking forward to trying it!

Definitely had side-to-side slippage particularly on warm days, but it's been reduced drastically with the custom cork footbeds.

Most of the bootfitters I've seen have commented on how small my heels are :(

The woman in my group had her boot since Oct 2019. She complained (more like b***h) about her heel movement since day one. I told her it was her technique. She was skeptical.
April 2021, spring skiing at PT. She started up on the heel thing again. I told her to shut up and ski. We can talk about it at après.
Over beer after skiing, I pull the liner out of my boot. Told her to look at the heel pocket. She mumbled "There is nothing there." I said "Exactly."
The only thing left of the heel pocket was the plastic exterior of the liner. No other liner material there. She asked how I managed to keep my heel down without anything there. My answer was "I don't lift it. Active heel hold down rather than passive."

The boot had about 370 days up to that point with the original OEM liners. Was planned to get new boots at the start of 2021 season. Covid19 screwed with that one. Finished the season on that boot. Skied 4-1/2 more week after that.

Once she realized what her issues were, she went and worked on her technique. Clean up her skiing a lot in the spring 2021 and past season. She is upgrading to a new boot this coming season. She is looking for a performance upgrade rather than a tighter fit.
 

SpeedyKevin

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That's an interesting exercise and I'm looking forward to trying it!

Definitely had side-to-side slippage particularly on warm days, but it's been reduced drastically with the custom cork footbeds.

Most of the bootfitters I've seen have commented on how small my heels are :(
I see my wife found this thread ^ haha. @KingGrump I have to say the post/experience mentioned by liquid feet is exactly what I noticed this season. Was a revelation for my skiing!
 

Lauren

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I told her to shut up and ski.
This is regularly my husband's advice (although for the sake of our marriage he normally leaves out the “shut up” part). And often times, for many of us over-analyzers, it’s the best advice one can get.

I regularly think of a friend of mine that needed new boots, but couldn’t afford a new pair at that time. He worked at a mountain and borrowed a pair of rental boots for the season…he’s a great skier, and skied just fine in rental boots all season.…often times technique trumps all.
 
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LiquidFeet

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Keeping the heel firmly planted on the sole of the boot, and weighting that heel so the tail of the ski is engaged with the snow, is important. That was the thing I was able to start learning after figuring out that I was skiing on the balls of my feet. Keeping the entire ski engaged, tip to tail, is important.

Any time a skier complains that their heel is moving sideways in the boot, there's something wrong with the boot fit. The heel cup is too wide.

If the heels lift in the boot, maybe the skier is skiing on the balls of the feet, or maybe not. But in either event there is too much room over the instep and/or in front of the ankle. That is an important fit issue that needs to be addressed. A lower volume boot may be needed.

In other words, the shell width-wise and volume-wise needs to match the foot's anatomy close enough to keep the heel from loosely wobbling around in there.

King Grump skis with his boots unbuckled. And he keeps his heel planted firmly on the boot sole. His boot shells fit tightly enough to not wobble around his feet when the buckles are undone. And he skis with excellent technique in deep and steep bumps, so clearly his unbuckled boots don't allow his heels to move around in there.

Most people would benefit from having boots that match their feet in 3 dimensions as well as his do.
 

Tony S

I have a confusion to make ...
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And often times, for many of us over-analyzers, it’s the best advice one can get.
Totally true. Equally true is that for the majority, who are NOT over-reflectors, a little more attention to whether that third pair of thick wool socks might be an indicator that there is "room" for improvement is past due.
 

Philpug

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Overthinking is underappreciated.
Nordica's ad campaign from years back.
Screen Shot 2022-08-16 at 7.46.27 AM.png
 

KingGrump

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This is regularly my husbands advice (although for the sake of our marriage he normally leaves out the “shut up” part). And often times, for many of us over-analyzers, it’s the best advice one can get.

BTW, this is not Mamie. I would be dead if if was. With Mamie, I maintain marital harmony by elimination of unsolicited ski advices.

Care to elaborate?

I believe @LiquidFeet covered it pretty well. Round turns, smooth lines and max snow contact. Let the ski do the skiing.
Full contact on the entire bottom of the feet. Pressure distribution varies trough out the turn is handled mainly through ankle articulation.
Fore foot fit in width is very critical for me. The instep height is not so critical.
I like to think I do 3D skiing. (Both 3D snow and 3D terrain. Would that make it 6D?) I like to think with respect to the boot. I control the vertical movement. The foot bed takes care of the fore and aft. Width of the boot fore foot keep me from moving side to side in the boot.
I have always been very sensitive to fore foot width in a boot. Usually have to creep up on it. It is especially too easy to create too much fore foot width with the current heat molding technique. The Fischer Vac system is the only heat molding where they can actually tighten the fore foot fit. Good boot, issues with the durability of the plastic.
 

zircon

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Keeping the heel firmly planted on the sole of the boot, and weighting that heel so the tail of the ski is engaged with the snow, is important. That was the thing I was able to start learning after figuring out that I was skiing on the balls of my feet. Keeping the entire ski engaged, tip to tail, is important.
One of the things that helped me a ton in the past few seasons was to think back to my competitive horseback riding days: heels down, toes up, weight centered over the base of support*. I don't always succeed, but when it does, it works.

*Note: this is NOT necessarily standing up straight. In circular motion your "base of support" could be the centripetal force.
 

Seldomski

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I like to think I do 3D skiing. (Both 3D snow and 3D terrain. Would that make it 6D?)
Technically 3D motion of a rigid body is 6 degrees of freedom (7 if you count time). x, y, z location and 3 angles (yaw, pitch, roll) to describe the orientation. This mathematically describes a rigid body. People aren't rigid, so the degrees of freedom goes up considerably. This is why things go off the rails quickly when people try to talk about 'angles' and use math/physics to describe skiing... The notation to do so is complex and I've never seen it done on this forum (please don't).
 

KingGrump

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Technically 3D motion of a rigid body is 6 degrees of freedom (7 if you count time). x, y, z location and 3 angles (yaw, pitch, roll) to describe the orientation. This mathematically describes a rigid body. People aren't rigid, so the degrees of freedom goes up considerably. This is why things go off the rails quickly when people try to talk about 'angles' and use math/physics to describe skiing... The notation to do so is complex and I've never seen it done on this forum (please don't).

Speaking of over thinking. Wow.

My belief is if one is thinking while skiing. One is already behind the eight ball.
To me skiing is a feeling, not a thought process.

I said "I like to think". I don't really do that rigorously. Especially on the hill. Since I would be working without tools.

"People aren't rigid"
I guess you haven't been watching skiers on the hill lately.

The notation to do so is complex and I've never seen it done on this forum (please don't).
Oh, I have. Not well, but it had been done.

BTW, I didn't bring all these tech stuff up. You did.
I am more of a touchy feely kinda of skier.
 

Seldomski

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Speaking of over thinking. Wow.

My belief is if one is thinking while skiing. One is already behind the eight ball.
To me skiing is a feeling, not a thought process.

I said "I like to think". I don't really do that rigorously. Especially on the hill. Since I would be working without tools.

"People aren't rigid"
I guess you haven't been watching skiers on the hill lately.

The notation to do so is complex and I've never seen it done on this forum (please don't).
Oh, I have. Not well, but it had been done.

BTW, I didn't bring all these tech stuff up. You did.
I am more of a touchy feely kinda of skier.
We are in violent agreement. You just mentioned 6D for two skis, and my only point is it is way worse than that (when trying to be accurate/thorough describing skier mechanics) and not worth thinking about, other than in generalities. Maybe think about all of that if you are a PhD student designing a robot that can ski in a lab. Not as a skier on the mountain.

:beercheer:
 

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