Budget Boot for Expert Skier

[In2h2o]

Plugs start at 22.5 and generally top out at 28.5.

Thanks, but my question was in reference to @Cheizz 's comment regarding at what mondo point is the "reference mondo point" for the "LAST" size which is why I included his comment:

"Most brands publish those these days, at least for the featured size (26.5 for men, 25.5 for women's boots). With every full mondo size up, the last width increases by 2 mm; with every size down from the featured size, the last width decreases by 2 mm.​

I was asking my question as I did not realize there was? is? a different reference size for mens and women's boots. So to clarify my original question.....

1. What is the LAST reference mondo size for Mens boots - is it 26.5?
2. What is the LAST reference mondo size for the Women's boots - is it 25.5?
3. I am assuming the LAST reference mondo size for plugs is 26.5?

thanks

 

[markojp]

26.5 men's, 24.5 for women's.

(Edited for correction... 26.5 for both.)

 

[Lauren]

26.5 men's, 24.5 for women's.

I’ve known this…but never really thought about it. So if a 98mm lasted boot is 98 wide in a 26.5 mens boot, the women’s version is 98mm in a 24.5? If this is the case, manufacturers are basically assuming women have wider feet for the same length as a man?

 

[onenerdykid]

I’ve known this…but never really thought about it. So if a 98mm lasted boot is 98 wide in a 26.5 mens boot, the women’s version is 98mm in a 24.5? If this is the case, manufacturers are basically assuming women have wider feet for the same length as a man?

No the reference size is 26/26.5 - full stop.

There isn’t a measurement reference size for men and a different one for women. All brands use the same lower shell for men & women, meaning “Hawx Prime is 100mm lasted, medium fit boot”. It is always a medium fit on every size, which means it is scaled for each size.

Usually, men’s development size is 26/26.5 and women’s development size is 24/24.5. Those are usually the first sizes to get completed when a brand makes a new boot. But there is only one reference size, which for most every brand is going to be 26/26.5.

 

[In2h2o]

Thank you @onenerdykid !!!!!

 

[Cheizz]

No the reference size is 26/26.5 - full stop.

There isn’t a measurement reference size for men and a different one for women. All brands use the same lower shell for men & women, meaning “Hawx Prime is 100mm lasted, medium fit boot”. It is always a medium fit on every size, which means it is scaled for each size.

Usually, men’s development size is 26/26.5 and women’s development size is 24/24.5. Those are usually the first sizes to get completed when a brand makes a new boot. But there is only one reference size, which for most every brand is going to be 26/26.5.

Thanks. In that case it was explained to me incorrectly.

 

[markojp]

No the reference size is 26/26.5 - full stop.

There isn’t a measurement reference size for men and a different one for women. All brands use the same lower shell for men & women, meaning “Hawx Prime is 100mm lasted, medium fit boot”. It is always a medium fit on every size, which means it is scaled for each size.

Usually, men’s development size is 26/26.5 and women’s development size is 24/24.5. Those are usually the first sizes to get completed when a brand makes a new boot. But there is only one reference size, which for most every brand is going to be 26/26.5.

Copy that. Thank you for the correction. The 24.5... I heard from several people in the boot industry, but not directly in the manufacturing end. It's always a good idea to revisit assumptions.

Part of my own problem is I've pretty much stopped paying much attention to numbers on boot boxes other than for the most general sort of guideline. So much so that the reference size sorta matters, but not alot as there are way too many other less measurable and probably more critical internal volumes (3d) in a boot that need to work, and the reference width is a 2d measure. Forefoot volume is super easy to change (within reason) if needed.

The classic example is the person with a very low volume ankle and instep, but has a wider forefoot with bunions who insists that they need a high volume boot. Here, the width reference number really doesn't matter and often keeps people out of a better fit. A good fitter sees the foot as a unique volume, checks mobility to determine range of functional motion, and has a good understanding of boot product, plastics, and what work can realistically be done on any given boot in their inventory, and importantly, what cannot.

Again, thanks for the correction.

 

[Marker]

Why isn't mondopoint used for regular shoes all over the world? In contrast to all other size systems, mondopoint is based on relatable, actual measurements of feet.

Actually, I thought the US size was supposed to be based on measurements, but in a weird way. I don't recall where I read this, but it was back in Epic days, so please correct me if I'm wrong. Using around 26.5 as the reference boot for last, one can calculate the corresponding US size:

26: 2 + 6 = 8
26.5: 2 + 6 = 8 and tack on the 0.5 = 8.5
27: 2 + 7 = 9
30: 30 = 20 + 10 = 2 + 0 and tack on the 10 = 12

Looks like the UK size corresponds to a "performance" fit. And though I started in a 33.5 boot as a beginner, I started requesting smaller boots at the rental shop until I "thought" I had it right at 31.5. That purchased boot was sold after 2 years and I've been skiing in 30.5 narrow last boots ever since with the help of bootfitters.

 

[Uncle-A]

No the reference size is 26/26.5 - full stop.

There isn’t a measurement reference size for men and a different one for women. All brands use the same lower shell for men & women, meaning “Hawx Prime is 100mm lasted, medium fit boot”. It is always a medium fit on every size, which means it is scaled for each size.

Usually, men’s development size is 26/26.5 and women’s development size is 24/24.5. Those are usually the first sizes to get completed when a brand makes a new boot. But there is only one reference size, which for most every brand is going to be 26/26.5.

You say the woman's development size is a 24.5 and what width would that be? The reason I ask is because I have an ongoing debate with my daughter about what size boot she should be skiing. I think she should be using a 24.5 and she thinks it should be a 25.5, her foot is similar to mine, wide with a high instep. What would be a high volume size for women's boot? Is there a wide last made for women is it 98 or 100?

 

[Tony S]

All brands use the same lower shell for men & women

Interesting.

Seems like it would be good to have a "myth/reality" article pinned in the boots section with a list of things like this. Obviously the "no half sizes" thing would be one of the first entries.

 

[Lauren]

No the reference size is 26/26.5 - full stop.

There isn’t a measurement reference size for men and a different one for women. All brands use the same lower shell for men & women, meaning “Hawx Prime is 100mm lasted, medium fit boot”. It is always a medium fit on every size, which means it is scaled for each size.

Usually, men’s development size is 26/26.5 and women’s development size is 24/24.5. Those are usually the first sizes to get completed when a brand makes a new boot. But there is only one reference size, which for most every brand is going to be 26/26.5.

Thanks for clearing that up. I’ve heard the same thing markojp described above and just never thought about it…then when I actually thought about it, I couldn’t make sense of it. Glad I asked.

ETA: Thinking about this further, I’ve also gotta ask about the lower shell being the same for men/women…I’m guessing this is mostly due to cost. But is the manufacturing world doing women a disservice by doing this? My understanding, which seems to be backed up by many studies is that women tend to have narrower feet for the same length, generally speaking. And judging by the number of serious women skiers that end up in a junior race boot, this seems to follow in line with my understanding.

Has there been discussions and research on creating boot lines specifically with women in mind? This is assuming that most current models are built off of average/median mens feet…cause if we’re being honest here…skiing is still very much a boys club in many ways (though getting better all the time).

 

[Philpug]

Seems like it would be good to have a "myth/reality" article pinned in the boots section with a list of things like this. Obviously the "no half sizes" thing would be one of the first entries.

This could be number two myth.

26: 2 + 6 = 8
26.5: 2 + 6 = 8 and tack on the 0.5 = 8.5
27: 2 + 7 = 9
30: 30 = 20 + 10 = 2 + 0 and tack on the 10 = 12

 

[Uncle-A]

This could be number two myth.

I always thought that it was over simplified just to make it easy for customers to understand.

 

[Philpug]

I always thought that it was over simplified just to make it easy for customers to understand.

But a bad one and should be avoided and dismissed.

Mondo has nothing to do with addition, it is just simply centimeters.

 

[Uncle-A]

But a bad one and should be avoided and dismissed.

Mondo has nothing to do with addition, it is just simply centimeters.

You and I know that, as well as most of our community, but the general public does not. Just a side story about the last pair of boots I bought. I went to a shop that I knew carried the boot that I had researched and asked for a 26.5 and when the sales guy handed me the box he asked if I needed any help. I said no thanks I got it, he said I figured you did when you asked for it in 26.5 instead of the shoe size. I think that was how the conversation went IIRC. He hung around and chatted but didn't get involved as I tried the boot on, he did talk to me about aftermarket foot beds and I told him I do have my own already.
One of the guys I ski with (a former customer and from my hometown) asked me to go with him when he went to buy his new skis boots and bindings. I was happy to go along. I helped him with his boots and the sales guy stayed close by and said that his shop was hiring if I was interested. The shop was a little too far from home and I was in the process of moving. But my friend was very happy with the boots we found.

 

[cantunamunch]

But a bad one and should be avoided and dismissed.

Yep - it's more mystical numerology than mnemonic.

 

[Philpug]

You and I know that, as well as most of our community, but the general public does not

We have said many times over, when replying in a discussion/thread, you are not just replying to the others in the discussion but also the thousands of eyes ie the general public, that are viewing the discussion. So that is why we post this type of clarification.

 

[KingGrump]

Thanks for clearing that up. I’ve heard the same thing markojp described above and just never thought about it…then when I actually thought about it, I couldn’t make sense of it. Glad I asked.

ETA: Thinking about this further, I’ve also gotta ask about the lower shell being the same for men/women…I’m guessing this is mostly due to cost. But is the manufacturing world doing women a disservice by doing this? My understanding, which seems to be backed up by many studies is that women tend to have narrower feet for the same length, generally speaking. And judging by the number of serious women skiers that end up in a junior race boot, this seems to follow in line with my understanding.

Has there been discussions and research on creating boot lines specifically with women in mind? This is assuming that most current models are built off of average/median mens feet…cause if we’re being honest here…skiing is still very much a boys club in many ways (though getting better all the time).

I believe that is more a store stock issue rather than availability from the manufacturer end.

 

[charlier]

I believe that is more a store stock issue rather than availability from the manufacturer end.

Correct me if I am wrong, but Tecnica, Atomic, and other manufacturers design ski boots specifically for women. It’s difficult to make adult womens boots in a true 21,5: size. Currently companies cannot offer such sizes with an adult toe lug. I am sure small women sizes are under discussion in Austria.

In addition, a lower women’s cuff height has not to do with reduced costs. It’s mostly due to women’s lower calf anatomy. With sizes above ~24.5, a women can easily fit into a mens boot with the higher shell height.

 

[markojp]

Correct me if I am wrong, but Tecnica, Atomic, and other manufacturers design ski boots specifically for women. It’s difficult to make adult womens boots in a true 21,5: size. Currently companies cannot offer such sizes with an adult toe lug. I am sure small women sizes are under discussion in Austria.

In addition, a lower women’s cuff height has not to do with reduced costs. It’s mostly due to women’s lower calf anatomy. With sizes above ~24.5, a women can easily fit into a mens boot with the higher shell height.

Both Lange and Dalbello make a true 21.5 adult sole boot.

Some women have no problem with taller cuff heights. Others do. Same with men.

S