Cabrio vs Overlap

[Bruno Schull]

Hi Folks,

OK, let's hear it, Cabrio vs Overlap.

Specifically, what are the pros and cons of a boot like the Dalbello Lupo or Full Tilt Descendent vs. something like the Atomic Hawk Prime (I'm a wide foot guy) or the Lange RX 130? (or any other equivalent boots).

• Do Cabrio boots, as a general category, really have a more progressive and consistent forward flex?
• Do Cabrio boots have enough lateral support?
• All the young folks on big rockered skis and in the freestyle park seem to love Cabrio boots; how do these boots work for the alternate uses like carving?
• Are Cabrio boots really easier to get into/out of?

Reports from folks with experience of both appreciated.

For those who are interested, here is the motivation for this question. I have new this season 130 Atomic Hawx Prime boots. They fit well; my toes just just touch the front of the boot when standing up straight, and then pull back slightly as I flex the boot. There is no sloppiness, especially with my custom foot beds. The whole boot fits like the proverbial firm handshake, except for a small hotspot over the instep that has largely dissappeared. So what's the problem? The stock Mimic liners feel stiff off the top, but they have a discernable "flex point" or "collapse point" in the middle of the travel. I flex forward, they feel supportive, and then I reach a point where the liner folds, I can feel the bottom edge of the hard plastic stiffener on the tongue digging into my instep, and the support disappears. This was greatly improved when I substituted older Palau overlap liners into the boots; with these simple foam overlap liners, the boot flex feel much more progressive, predictable, and consistent from beginning to end. That lead me to start thinking about progressive boot flex, and that lead me to consider Cabrio boots like the Dalbello and Full Tilt.

Also, with the stock liners, these boots are ridiculously difficult to get on and take off! I'm no stranger to boot wrangling, but as I jam and twist my foot down, I have to pull the tongue nearly completely out of the boot, it gets tangled in the plastic shell, the buckles get all crossed, and I'm honestly afraid of cutting my fingers as I try to push/pull the tongue back inside. I'm an athletic guy, and it still feels like an intense core exercise. Is this the price to pay for firm boots that fit well? There has to be a better way.

Thoughts?

 

[onenerdykid]

A few points...

Progressive Flex means a boot gets stiffer the more you flex deeper into its flex pattern. Like mountain bike suspension, these boots feels softer during the initial portion of the flex pattern and get progressively stiffer the more you flex them. A Linear Flex means a boot more or less feels the same through its flex pattern. A 3-piece boot is not considered to have a progressive flex (definitely not more progressive than an overlap boot). If anything, they are more linear.

You should take advantage of the heat moldable technology in your Mimic liner. The special plastic that is in the ankle & heel, tongue, and calf of the liner will fully shape to your body and harden in that position. It won't become looser or anything like that, it will just become your foot and leg shape. What you are currently experiencing is probably linked to that.

As for getting in and out, do not pull up on the liner tongue (of any ski boot). Use the tongue as a shield to push one part of the shell's overlap away and then with your other hand push the other side of the overlap. You will get in and out much easier this way.

 

[locknload]

A few points...

Progressive Flex means a boot gets stiffer the more you flex deeper into its flex pattern. Like mountain bike suspension, these boots feels softer during the initial portion of the flex pattern and get progressively stiffer the more you flex them. A Linear Flex means a boot more or less feels the same through its flex pattern. A 3-piece boot is not considered to have a progressive flex (definitely not more progressive than an overlap boot). If anything, they are more linear.

You should take advantage of the heat moldable technology in your Mimic liner. The special plastic that is in the ankle & heel, tongue, and calf of the liner will fully shape to your body and harden in that position. It won't become looser or anything like that, it will just become your foot and leg shape. What you are currently experiencing is probably linked to that.

As for getting in and out, do not pull up on the liner tongue (of any ski boot). Use the tongue as a shield to push one part of the shell's overlap away and then with your other hand push the other side of the overlap. You will get in and out much easier this way.

This is spot on with using the tongue as a shield. My Lange's used to tear the crap out of my foot until someone showed me this. It makes all the difference. I have skied in Dalbello Lupo in the past and did like the flex. I didn't feel they were as laterally quick as my Lange's but it wasn't a big deal for the kind of skiing I do. Ultimately, the Lupo's didn't quite fit my foot as well as the 2 piece Lange's..so I haven't looked back. It sounds like the Hawx fit you quite well, so I'm not sure I'd go looking for a different boot per se. You can figure out the getting in and out of them so its not so unpleasant and anxiety creating. Good advice to work the the liner a bit before giving up. If you still can't get it to flex the way you want..you may to explore an after market liner rather than a new boot.

 

[Bruno Schull]

@ One Nerdy Kid,

Thanks for your reply--I really appreciate that.

You're right, of course. I realize that I was using "progressive" in a very imprecise, wishy-washy way, meaning something more like consistent, or predictable, which are admittedly vague terms. How could we make this more scientific? Let's say you stuck a boot in a fixture, perhaps with some kind of space-filling foot-shaped armature, and measured the force required to flex the boot through a range of motion. You could then plot the force required to flex the boot further at successive points. The spectacular Skialper Buyer's guide from Italy did this with a range of touring and freeride boots last year--I should look back and compare the overlap and cabrio boots they tested. In any case, with a true progressive flex, the force would increase through the range of motion, and you would have an ascending line, maybe a straight line, probably some kind of curve or parabola, hopefully without any abrupt changes. Contrast that with a true linear flex boot. In this case, the graph would look like a horizontal line. No matter where you were in the range of motion, it would alwasy require the same amount of force to flex the boot a specified number of degrees further. Is that correct?

So what does my boot feel like, and what am I looking for? If we plotted the flex of the boot with un-molded Mimic liners, rear spoilers attached, and custom insoles, I would say that it would be lightly progressive at first. The graph of the force per degree would ascend, requiring slightly more force to flex the boot as you move through the travel. Then, abruptly, the force would drop. That's the folding or collapsing behavior I was trying to describe. It feels like the boot flexes to a certain point, and then the liner hinges at the bottom edge of the plastic stiffener, and folds forward, at which point the stiffener cuts into my instep. As you suggest, molding the liner might make the whole thing flex differently, perhaps by introducing a light curve near the bottom of the plastic stiffener, but I'm not convinced. I don't see how subtly changing the shape of the liner will prevent the stiff plastic from folding over at the much less resistant portion of the liber over the instep. Then again, I'd be happy to try. The problem is finding a qualified boot fitter in Switzerland. (That's a completely different topic--the lack of trained boot fitters in Switzerland. I contacted Atomic...and they told me t go to Austria.)

When I install my Palau overlap foam liners, they are slightly softer overall--let's say 10-15 % softer. But the graph of force per degree is also lightly progressive, but it is consistent. It rises smoothly, with no abrupt drops. It does not have that hinge-point behavior, and because it doesn't fold forward, the bottom edge of the stiffener doesn't cut into my instep. That's what I'm looking for. Progressive, consistent flex, no abrupt changes.

Why not just use these boots with a foam overlap liner? Well, that's where the entry/exit comes into play. I heard an experienced guy say that anytime a boot is easy to get on and off he's suspicious it might be too big or too soft. So maybe I just need to get used to a stiff boot in the right size. It's also possible that some adjustments in technique might make things easier. I definitely try. But again, I'm not convinced. Without yanking the tongue of the Mimic liner or the overlapping portions of the Palau liber out of the boot, there's physically no way to get these boots on or off. And, just to emphasize, I've been working on bikes, using climbing gear, doing woodwork, metal work, construction, and so on, for all of my life. Tools, levers, forces, angles--these things are not foreign to me. But when I have to get my foot into or out of these boots, it requires a few deep breaths and mental prepardness before tacking the challenge. It's harder with the stock Mimic liners, and easier with the Palau overlap liners, but in both cases I have to pull the liner through and out of the shell. And that worries me. I already notice wear on the liners, and I think I will quickly destroy whatever liner I have in the boot.

So I arrive at Cabrio boots, and the possibility to use a overlap foam liner, with easy on/off. The question is, will they feel supportive enough?

Last, you're an Atomic guy, right? Is that Matt Manser lurking behind the "One Nerdy Kid"? If you are an Atomic rep, you might be interested to learn that it was a super-interesting and informative podcast series on Blister with Matt Manser that lead me to buy the Atomic Hawx Prime 130 alpine boot and the Hawx Prime 130 XTD touring boot. Yes, that's right, I have both pairs of boots. On the podcast, I listened to all the information about plastics, boot design, sizing, and so forth, and I thought to myself, this engineer/designer, and this company, really seem to be doing something right. I trust them, so I'm going to go ahead and buy their boots. I liked the idea that the alpine and touring versions of Hawx Prime were intended to feel very similar, and I hoped that would help keep as much as possible the same when switching between alpine and touring systems.

Aside from the problems mentioned above, these two boots are the best skiing alpine and touring boots I've ever used. They are the first alpine boots that gave me some powerful lower leg support, are the first touring boots that allowed me to feel like I had some real control off piste. So, in general, I like the direction these products are headed. But I'd love to find a lasting solution for the flex and the on/off.

 

[Ecimmortal]

Last, you're an Atomic guy, right? Is that Matt Manser lurking behind the "One Nerdy Kid"?

Yes, even though I don't ski an Atomic boot the online ski community is lucky to have this guy be so active across multiple different forums.

 

[onenerdykid]

@Bruno Schull - I'll put you in contact with a good boot-fitter in Switzerland (just waiting to hear back from him about his availability, stay tuned).

This is the same Matt from the Blister podcasts and really happy to hear you enjoyed them (and even happier to hear that you are enjoying your new boots!). When Jonathan and I talked about flex and all the things associated with it, at one point we talked about the flex testing robot that Atomic commissioned a few years ago. This robot flex tests any boot we hook it up to and maps out how much force/torque (in Nm) it takes to flex the boot to certain degrees, both fore and aft.

Pictured above is the new Hawx Ultra 130 S but we do this to all of our boots and all of the relevant competitors too. And when you run the test, you can see the flex curve of the boot. Here is a Hawx Prime 130 S vs. a very well known 100mm 130 competitor:

Nm value on the Y-axis and angle on the X-axis (0° is the boot's natural forward lean position)

This is what progressive flex curves usually look like. And to be honest, even the "linear" boots still have some progression to them, they just don't ramp up as much as the boots shown above. It's probably impossible to have a truly linear flex pattern that does not deviate start to finish.

 

[Tim Hodgson]

What is the unflexed forward lean of the Hawx Prime 130 S vs. a very well known 100mm 130 competitor?

 

[onenerdykid]

What is the unflexed forward lean of the Hawx Prime 130 S vs. a very well known 100mm 130 competitor?

Hawx forward lean is 15° out of the box. "S" models can be repositioned to 13° or 17°

Competitor will remain anonymous, I'm not here to start a war

 

[Rod9301]

Cabrio boots are a lot easier to put on than overlap

 

[Tim Hodgson]

I believe the well known competitor is "Degree Ramp Angle/ 12 Degree Forward Lean"

 

[Bruno Schull]

Hi Matt--Thanks for posting. That's a cool looking boot torture device. It would be great if more companies published data like this, or even if there was a standard test protocol.

I tried the boot entry/exit technique today--it was easier but still a bit of a wrestling match. Hopefully my technique will improve. I'd just like to get to the point where, going in or coming out, I don't have to have parts of the liner protruding and getting trapped by the overlap cuffs.

The flex/support/collapse/forefoot pain problem persists...I looked more closely at the liner, and the collapse and pressure point is right where the first of the cut outs in the harder plastic stiffener of the tongue is located. Makes sense.

I will try to get the liners molded and report back.

About boot fitters in CH...did you ever come across my sob story/horror story from last year?

https://www.skitalk.com/threads/should-i-be-angry-at-this-bootfitter-with-updated-conclusion.19096/

The same topic came up. In the final update I provide some links to good boot fitters in CH that I did find. Those boots were eventually warrantied by the large parent sporting goods store Intersport, but I made no headway with the original shop. I saw the same "expert bootfitter" at work in his store this year. That outfit is definitely not a place where you want to sell boots.

Thanks again, B

 

[Noodler]

Cabrio boots are a lot easier to put on than overlap

Then I need to make a video of me putting on my Fischer The Curv 130 boots. It will blow your mind...

 

[Ecimmortal]

I put boots on once a day. Ease of entry does not effect time sliding on snow.

 

[Ecimmortal]

As for getting in and out, do not pull up on the liner tongue (of any ski boot). Use the tongue as a shield to push one part of the shell's overlap away and then with your other hand push the other side of the overlap. You will get in and out much easier this way.

Update: I still only put my boots on once a day. But this is amazing.