Stan90

In the parking lot (formerly "At the base lodge")
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My thoughts, as an enthusiastic but developing frontside resort skiier of limited financial means:

The majority of the time spent improving a physical skill involves correct repetitions of a theoretical movement, after having learned what that movement should feel / look like - i.e. "Effective Practice".

Feedback on repetitions is often limited in accuracy / quality / availability, usually not instantaneous, and socially / monetarily expensive.

- Online videos can teach me the theory and show me the movement, but provide no feedback
- An instructor can do the same, and provide quick informed feedback as long as your wallet / their schedule allows (an hour ~ a whole trip)
- Skiing with friends / family of similar skill allows for similarly quick but less informed feedback for the extent of their patience / your social grace (half a run ~ your whole ski trip)
- Video recordings of oneself provide delayed feedback so long as you have a patient cameraman, fancy equipment and/or honest strangers

This device claimed to provide accurate, high quality, unlimited, immediate and accurate feedback at the cost of a few lessons.
For me, it delivered on those promises.

An example of how it helped me apply forward pressure:
I've seen endless advice to "get out of the backseat", "get forward" and "press your shins into the boot", especially at the beginning of a turn. Just by feel I believe I have been applying these movement correctly; My turns seem to hook up better and I skid a little less, but my performance still isn't there.
The app immediately tells me that I'm still not pressuring forward nearly hard enough. It feels totally unnatural at first, but I just start lauching myself downhill on turn transition, bending the absolutle bejewels out of the front of my boot and practically sticking my chest over the tips of the skis. The motion feels exaggerated, but both the app and the newfound way my skis come around tell me this is how I should have been doing things all along.
 
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TheArchitect

Working to improve all the time
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The app immediately tells me that I'm still not pressuring forward nearly hard enough. It feels totally unnatural at first, but I just start lauching myself downhill on turn transition, bending the absolutle bejewels out of the front of my boot and practically sticking my chest over the tips of the skis. The motion feels exaggerated, but both the app and the newfound way my skis come around tell me this is how I should have been doing things all along.
My question is....how are you launching yourself? Are you using your feet and ankles or is it an upper body movement? When I was trying a toppling movement earlier this season I was experiencing what you're describing. I was doing it incorrectly by using my upper body much more than I should have. It made the turns quick and effortless but I wasn't skiing with my feet, which is wrong.
 

Jersey Skier

aka RatherPlayThanWork or Gary
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My question is....how are you launching yourself? Are you using your feet and ankles or is it an upper body movement? When I was trying a toppling movement earlier this season I was experiencing what you're describing. I was doing it incorrectly by using my upper body much more than I should have. It made the turns quick and effortless but I wasn't skiing with my feet, which is wrong.
Does the app let you know you are doing it wrong or will it be fooled?
 

Noodler

Just piste off
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Does the app let you know you are doing it wrong or will it be fooled?
My assumption is that it can't truly determine what is happening across any part of your body that isn't the bottom of your foot. The primary concern I have is that when I am absolutely crushing the front of my boot using strong foot pullback and dorsiflexion, how in the world would CARV figure out that is happening? I don't plantar flex in these movements and yet I'm am fully forward. I just don't see how this can work correctly, but it's an interesting idea. I just don't think it can actually draw accurate conclusions from the pressure seen on the sole of your foot.
 

TheArchitect

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My assumption is that it can't truly determine what is happening across any part of your body that isn't the bottom of your foot. The primary concern I have is that when I am absolutely crushing the front of my boot using strong foot pullback and dorsiflexion, how in the world would CARV figure out that is happening? I don't plantar flex in these movements and yet I'm am fully forward. I just don't see how this can work correctly, but it's an interesting idea. I just don't think it can actually draw accurate conclusions from the pressure seen on the sole of your foot.
Good points. I still think that Carv provides a lot of useful information, though. In the limited time I've been using it I've confirmed my personal beliefs that I am properly weighting my outside ski, that my left and right turns are relatively symmetrical and that my edge angles aren't nearly high enough for my liking. It's also helped me figure out my fore/aft stance needs some adjustment.

What it doesn't tell you, as you point out, is whether you're achieving these things with correct technique. When I was toppling Carv was telling me that I was successfully getting early pressure on my edges and keeping it for a larger part of the arc. It didn't know that I was basically throwing myself forward from the knees up. The only thing I was doing with my feet was softening the new inside leg right before the transition to allow my body to "fall" to the inside of the next turn instead of up-weighting. If I had done that without also throwing my hips I think I would have been closer to the right technique.
 

Jersey Skier

aka RatherPlayThanWork or Gary
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My assumption is that it can't truly determine what is happening across any part of your body that isn't the bottom of your foot. The primary concern I have is that when I am absolutely crushing the front of my boot using strong foot pullback and dorsiflexion, how in the world would CARV figure out that is happening? I don't plantar flex in these movements and yet I'm am fully forward. I just don't see how this can work correctly, but it's an interesting idea. I just don't think it can actually draw accurate conclusions from the pressure seen on the sole of your foot.
Maybe they need a Carv liner with sensors all over the liner. Hopefully co-produced by Zipfit.
 

Steve

SkiMangoJazz
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There should be sensors all over your body, like what they use to do computer animation from live actors. Show you your entire body in 3D in motion. Wouldn't need video at that point in time.
 

KingGrump

Most Interesting Man In The World
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There should be sensors all over your body, like what they use to do computer animation from live actors. Show you your entire body in 3D in motion. Wouldn't need video at that point in time.
But then y'all will ski like golf carts. :duck:
 

Stan90

In the parking lot (formerly "At the base lodge")
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My question is....how are you launching yourself? Are you using your feet and ankles or is it an upper body movement? When I was trying a toppling movement earlier this season I was experiencing what you're describing. I was doing it incorrectly by using my upper body much more than I should have. It made the turns quick and effortless but I wasn't skiing with my feet, which is wrong.
The "launch" was something of a figure of speech to capture the sensation of what felt like an exaggerated movement during transition. I'm initiating with a softening of the outside leg + release of edges, then letting letting the inertia of my body cross over the skis laterally + moving forward / pulling the feet back / pressuring the tongue of my boot / pressuring the nose of the skis.
I suppose I was describing a combination of early edging and forward pressure, rather than a previous state of resisting the topple, staying with my weight back and consequently feeling like I needed superhuman strength / speed to get forward at the start of the next turn.
 

TheArchitect

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I put my Carv units back into the boots to try them with the new Zipfits this weekend. Sad to say that there is no freaking way I could ski with the Carv and Zipfits together. I can get the liners into the boot but the fit is so tight that my foot was hurting almost immediately and even the toe box was uncomfortable. This was completely unbuckled and even light buckling obviously made it worse.

The Zipfit liner is too good to go back to the stock liner so unfortunately I'm going to return the Carv units. Luckily Carv has a 100 day return period and I'm within that. I had never intended to use the Carv's long term but I had hoped to get a full season out of them. Kinda bummed but it's just another reason to finally get off my ass and get regular private lessons or a coach like others here have.
 

Noodler

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I put my Carv units back into the boots to try them with the new Zipfits this weekend. Sad to say that there is no freaking way I could ski with the Carv and Zipfits together. I can get the liners into the boot but the fit is so tight that my foot was hurting almost immediately and even the toe box was uncomfortable. This was completely unbuckled and even light buckling obviously made it worse.

The Zipfit liner is too good to go back to the stock liner so unfortunately I'm going to return the Carv units. Luckily Carv has a 100 day return period and I'm within that. I had never intended to use the Carv's long term but I had hoped to get a full season out of them. Kinda bummed but it's just another reason to finally get off my ass and get regular private lessons or a coach like others here have.
Yep. In a different boot with a bootboard that has more material depth, you could have done something, but not with the current boots.
 

helixbc

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The target range is from 45-60 with anything below indicating a too-forward stance and above you're too far back. With 2 separate monitor sessions of 306 and 337 turns my average score was 48. Before I had the voice giving me feedback my Ski IQ was lower for each run but the scores moved up after. The funny thing is I would have never guessed that my tendency was to be too far forward.
Question: Do you know exactly how they are coming up with the "Balance" score? I do not understand this definition: "We take the center of pressure for each turn and translate this into a score for your run." What is the "Center of Pressure for each turn"? Also, have you seen a description of the new metric "Forward Stance" that replaced "Fore:Aft balance? So for example, if I score a 69 in "Balance", how do I improve that? Was I too far forward or too far back on the 31 points that I am missing? And the current balance score refers to taking part of the old Fore:aft metric into account.

Thanks, hope this question made some sort of sense.
 

helixbc

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Do you guys feel like you are losing the joy of skiing while you are spending so much time and energy messing with this misfiring technology?
Absolutely not, if you use it for what it was created for. If you want to work on technique on a blue groomer, its perfect. If you want to go ripping around the mountain, the numbers don't mean squat.
 

TheArchitect

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Question: Do you know exactly how they are coming up with the "Balance" score? I do not understand this definition: "We take the center of pressure for each turn and translate this into a score for your run." What is the "Center of Pressure for each turn"? Also, have you seen a description of the new metric "Forward Stance" that replaced "Fore:Aft balance? So for example, if I score a 69 in "Balance", how do I improve that? Was I too far forward or too far back on the 31 points that I am missing? And the current balance score refers to taking part of the old Fore:aft metric into account.

Thanks, hope this question made some sort of sense.
I wish I could help but I have no idea how they're doing it. I'd send them a message for clarification.
 

Mike King

AKA Habacomike
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Question: Do you know exactly how they are coming up with the "Balance" score? I do not understand this definition: "We take the center of pressure for each turn and translate this into a score for your run." What is the "Center of Pressure for each turn"? Also, have you seen a description of the new metric "Forward Stance" that replaced "Fore:Aft balance? So for example, if I score a 69 in "Balance", how do I improve that? Was I too far forward or too far back on the 31 points that I am missing? And the current balance score refers to taking part of the old Fore:aft metric into account.

Thanks, hope this question made some sort of sense.
The balance score is really a measure of how well you manage pressure along the length of the ski and how well you roll your foot as you incline. The forward stance metric looks at whether you are moving forward on the ski as the edge angle increases and aft as it decreases.
 

helixbc

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I wish I could help but I have no idea how they're doing it. I'd send them a message for clarification.
Ok thanks. Based on your earlier message I thought you had it figured somehow. Where did you see that the lower score meant you were to far forward?
 

helixbc

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The balance score is really a measure of how well you manage pressure along the length of the ski and how well you roll your foot as you incline. The forward stance metric looks at whether you are moving forward on the ski as the edge angle increases and aft as it decreases.
Thanks for your reply Mike. I get their general descriptions. Where I feel they are lacking a bit is giving us the information to really dial it in and where to dial it in. A balance score of 69 is in the "Good" range. So what are they telling me I need to do to get to the "Great" range? Forward stance is 72% (Target Zone) and Foot Roll is 67% (Target Zone) Part of the Balance score takes into account the entire run and part takes into account as you enter a turn. (Forward Stance) They also haven't updated the Descriptions on the website since they replaced Fore:aft with Forward Stance. So I am sort of stuck not really know what to do to improve balance. Edging and Pressure descriptions and improvements are much clearer.
 
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