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Charger vs playful

DanishRider

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When reading reviews i always come across the "charger or playfull" characteristic, and when i get on a ski with one of these characteristic, i have always been a little confused about what that actually means - So as a service to everybody, i will try to explain what i found when setting two different ski head to head. Remember that this is my findings and opinions, and yours can be different!

Little about my stats: in my early 40's, little taller than 6,2 feet, and weighs in at 207 pounds approx - Been skiing since i was 6 years old, and do about 5-6 full weeks a year skiing.

Background: Had a 3 day trip to the opening weekend in Val D'isere France, where tons of snow kept falling, but it is still early season and i didn't know what to expect. I knew i was going to bring an all mountain ski, but since i have two, i had a decision to make. I decided on bringing both them, så the head to head is between the 16/17 Atomic Vantage 90 CTi and the 18/19 Blizzard Brahma

The playful
The Atomic Vantage 90 CTI (16/17): Often referred to as a "playful" ski, that works well in most conditions. Construction wise it has a pretty wide tip, tons of rocker in both ends, and camper in the middle. Full metal under foot, and partial metal a along the edges of the tip and tails with a traditional wood core. Atomic have also put something called Carbon Tank Mesh, which is another name for something that looks like a mesh of carbon - So i can see where they got the name from :) This have been one of my favourites for"do it all" for a long time. Fun is the word i think of when i hear Vantage 90 CTI. Mine is 184 in length.

The Charger
Blizzard Brahma 88: Fairly traditional wood layup, with something called "Flipcore" which i still haven't found out what is (if somebody can explain it, i would be happy to hear about it). More abrupt tip than the Atomic, and less rocker too. Carbon in the tip, and plenty of metal. Actually there is two full sheets of metal, and i have read somewhere that the metal is thicker than normal, but haven't been able to confirm this. I got these because i got a good deal on the last set in the store in 180 cm... And i never pass on a good deal, but have been instructed by my wife to buy whatever i want, as long as i am happy - I really have the best wife, but that is really not relevant for this little head to head.

Both skis hand-tuned and waxed by me, and both with 3/1 angles. Both mounted on the line with Salomon/Atomic Warden 13's.

If you are looking for a playful ski, the Atomic be what you are looking for, and if you are you could be looking for something that like going "over" stuff and not through stuff. Especially in the small bumps forming after lunch, the playful ski almost makes you jump over the small moguls and bumps forming, and to me that is fun! Also it is very easy to bend the ski in different forms even at low speed, which makes it very easy to manipulate into almost any turn shape. The tail is fairly stiff so when you get it up on edge, i really can "kick" you into the next turn, if the grip is there. That is fun to me, and the nicest feeling of ending a turn... but this also wears me out a little, because i have to spend a lot of energy bending it to the maximum. The tips are pretty soft, so being "over" the tips makes it possible to make very short turns for a ski this with. All this comes at a price, and the price is that it loses composure at high speeds, and tip-chatter is something you will have to deal with. If do have a top speed, so if anybody going at full speed all the time, you will have to looks elsewhere. When in +3000 meter and the wind is blowing, you will meet "ice" sometimes, and here you don't really get the to dig in, and offer you 100% stability, on the other hand, in these conditions you will also meet "pillows" of snow the wind have put together, and this ski will offer enough float to just go over it.

If you are looking for af chargy ski, you would probably look for something like the Brahma. When I was on it the first couple of runs, i doubted that this was a sane purchase (low visibility so didn't "let it go"), and felt that this was looked into one specific turnshape, and was a hassle to deal with. It also used up all my energy, and it felt like i had to be positioned in one specific way, og it would try to kick me out of the bindings (Blizzard did name it after a famous bull). After lunch the weather improved, and suddenly i could let it go. Such a big difference getting the speed up, and i could now manipulate into any turnshape i wanted, and it didn't feel tiring anymore. On the same small bumps the Atomic went over, the Brahma just blasted through them, and the edge was always as much in contact with the snow as possible. The metal made it super stable with no chatter at all, and even at really fast speeds it felt secure. I did read somewhere that this is a good bump ski, but i find this true until a certain size of bumps. I actually prefer the Atomic in bigger bumps, but this can be because i hate bigger bumps, and then slow everything a bit down. When meeting the same ice as above, the Brahma just bites the ice, and stay in the turn. I am really impressed with it here (It is 88 mm and not 68!). I grew to like it very much, but for speed which is a different kind of fun. When letting it go, i don't think it has a small sweet spot, but is far smaller than the Atomic, and you need to be positioned correctly on it, and if you have some bad habits, this ski will amplify it. After three days, i can say that i love it for most thing i do, but there will still be days where i prefer the Atomic (It has much more float!).

So was the object of this post? It was to show the difference between two different kind of skis, that belong in the same group (All mountain ca. 90 mm), and how I found them to be very different. When i read reviews I use it to "zoom" in on the candidates, but often different reviews speak a lot about construction and that kind of stuff - Here i try to speak about experience of the skis (not unlike Pugski), and try to differentiate between charger and playful.

Maybe i have put this in the wrong place here in the forum - Puggies feel free to move it :)
 

Philpug

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If you notice on our Product Pages, we have a scale for ski that is not unlike "Charger vs. Playful but "Power and Finesse." You will see each ski is rated on that scale.
 

fatbob

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Semantics is a bitch though

I see Power v Finesse as being very different to Charger v Playful

Power - You rely on weight, momentum (hence speed) and brute force to make your turns
Finesse - You are very technically refined and make quite delicate adjustments

Charger - a ski you ski hard and fast, straight lines, mullering crud, big radius turns
Playful - a ski that let's you throw out the technical skiing manual, and will pivot easily, slide and pull donuts in the parking lot

To be fair that's mainly a distinction on the Finesse v Playful end of the spectrum, I know finesse skiers who don't look like they ever enjoy powersliding and boarding transplant skiers who don't really ski in any recognised arc to arc style.

I know some might argue that the playful skier is using a lot of finesse skills like fine balance and rotary control when "messing around" so?
 

Philpug

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Semantics is a bitch though

I see Power v Finesse as being very different to Charger v Playful

Power - You rely on weight, momentum (hence speed) and brute force to make your turns
Finesse - You are very technically refined and make quite delicate adjustments

Charger - a ski you ski hard and fast, straight lines, mullering crud, big radius turns
Playful - a ski that let's you throw out the technical skiing manual, and will pivot easily, slide and pull donuts in the parking lot

To be fair that's mainly a distinction on the Finesse v Playful end of the spectrum, I know finesse skiers who don't look like they ever enjoy powersliding and boarding transplant skiers who don't really ski in any recognised arc to arc style.

I know some might argue that the playful skier is using a lot of finesse skills like fine balance and rotary control when "messing around" so?
Also in our 'Who is it for?/who is it nor for?" area, we do talk about charger, playful and other adjectives to desribe a ski.
 

trailtrimmer

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Semantics is a bitch though

I see Power v Finesse as being very different to Charger v Playful

Power - You rely on weight, momentum (hence speed) and brute force to make your turns
Finesse - You are very technically refined and make quite delicate adjustments

For review types, I think they are referring to the ski, not the skier type.

Ski type:
Finesse = Able to make multiple turn shapes and respond to corrections with moderate input changes.
Charger = Requires significant input to extract the most performance, typically requires more more speed to wake up and has a higher top end and like to go through inconsistent snow, not over it.
Playful = Able to transition from carve to smear, pop, and pivot with ease. Typically comes to life at lower speeds and is accessible to a broader range of skill sets.

I dislike putting a box around the skier themselves, advanced and expert skiers with a quiver that ski all over the mountain will usually grab a ski to go out in what they are going after that day. I can go from noodling around with family to hitting the gates all in the same day, but the tools for each and styles vary quite a bit.
 
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TS
DanishRider

DanishRider

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If you notice on our Product Pages, we have a scale for ski that is not unlike "Charger vs. Playful but "Power and Finesse." You will see each ski is rated on that scale.
This was never made as a competition to you reviews - They are stellar as they, and both these skis ended up in my quiver due to this site:) One thing that i had been wondering about was, how is the actual feeling of these two different kinds of skis, so decided to do a back to back test, to describe the feeling, and what sets them apart. You guys should keep reviewing skis as you already do, because you are damn good at it:)
 

Philpug

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This was never made as a competition to you reviews - They are stellar as they, and both these skis ended up in my quiver due to this site:) One thing that i had been wondering about was, how is the actual feeling of these two different kinds of skis, so decided to do a back to back test, to describe the feeling, and what sets them apart. You guys should reviewing skis as you already do, because you are good at it:)
No worries. I didn't think it was. Im just glad that we are checking most of the boxes for most of the people.
 
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TS
DanishRider

DanishRider

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Mainland Denmark Scandinavia
For review types, I think they are referring to the ski, not the skier type.

Ski type:
Finesse = Able to make multiple turn shapes and respond to corrections with moderate input changes.
Charger = Requires significant input to extract the most performance, typically requires more more speed to wake up and has a higher top end and like to go through inconsistent snow, not over it.
Playful = Able to transition from carve to smear, pop, and pivot with ease. Typically comes to life at lower speeds and is accessible to a broader range of skill sets.

I dislike putting a box around the skier themselves, advanced and expert skiers with a quiver that ski all over the mountain will usually grab a ski to go out in what they are going after that day. I can go from noodling around with family to hitting the gates all in the same day, but the tools for each and styles vary quite a bit.
This was what I was trying to seperate them against - And it is very much inline with my findings. I like both skis, both they are tools for two different things.
 

fatbob

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I dislike putting a box around the skier themselves, advanced and expert skiers with a quiver that ski all over the mountain will usually grab a ski to go out in what they are going after that day. I can go from noodling around with family to hitting the gates all in the same day, but the tools for each and styles vary quite a bit.

But if you are a versatile "expert" skier you will inevitably be able to power a Finesse ski to wring or finesse a Power ski. Take an FIS SL - what is that a Power or Finesse ski? If you aren't using both you're probably gonna have a bad time, but it certainly ain't playful except in a single dimension.

Not arguing for the sake of it - I think there is a useful discussion about what we mean by the words we use and how others translate them for their own comprehension i.e. Is "Finesse ski" sometimes a euphemism applied to an underpowered noodle?
 

Philpug

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First day out right now. I seem to prefer a charger for the first half of each run but something playful by the time I’m halfway down.
Thats fine if I am at Camelback where it is steeper at the top than the bottom...but if I am at Shawnee..where it is the opposite....:huh::duck:
 
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Philpug

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This thread will have a tremendous amount of "yeah, but...'s"
 

James

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Playful is often used in Blister reviews. Seems to imply one can do things with the ski other than traditional turns. Butter, slashes, etc. I also tend to interpret it as working well for tail pushers.
 

trailtrimmer

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But if you are a versatile "expert" skier you will inevitably be able to power a Finesse ski to wring or finesse a Power ski. Take an FIS SL - what is that a Power or Finesse ski? If you aren't using both you're probably gonna have a bad time, but it certainly ain't playful except in a single dimension.

Not arguing for the sake of it - I think there is a useful discussion about what we mean by the words we use and how others translate them for their own comprehension i.e. Is "Finesse ski" sometimes a euphemism applied to an underpowered noodle?

You can finesse and force a SL ski or GS ski into doing things it wasn't designed to do if you are a skilled pilot. A finesse ski will always have adhesion and speed limits and can easily be over driven by a skied pilot, especially on ice.

I've taken a 23M GS ski from the race course in the top three to playing in the woods one day, certainly not it's intended habitat but workable. It wasn't the ski that was providing the finesse.
 

ski otter 2

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First day out right now. I seem to prefer a charger for the first half of each run but something playful by the time I’m halfway down.

Yeah, as an older skier, I can relate to this. For me, twenty plus odd days into the season, after the first bunch of runs preferring a charger, I get to runs where my experience is gonna be either what you state - playful wanted as I tire half way down the run - or I'm going to stop, so I can recover enough to be more fully appreciating a charger feel again.

(I exaggerate a bit, but still, this is the trend. )
 

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