Charger vs playful

[altabrig]

Old thread being revived!

Agree with @tromano that chargers are usually heavier, stiffer, longer radius skis with great suspensions that even out variable terrain with ease. Usually traditional mount points but a few are more forward the last few years.
Would consider the previous gen 191cm Mantra 102 a charger but not the M6 as it doesn’t have the mass. Legend Pro, Sender Squad and many of the Heritage Labs skis would be other examples.

A playful charger is a ski with all the typical criteria of a charger of higher mass, long turn radius and solid flex but with a more progressive mount points, more tail splay/twin tip and more symmetrical sidecut. More forgiving and fun than a traditional charger but can still haul when desired. Moment Bibby/Wildcat, Faction 21 CT skis and Blackops 118 are all examples of playful chargers.

The Candide factions look like they are out of production. Seen em and they look fun. Lighter more progressive. Wonder how they hold up? Got a pair of factions for my kids, not sure how durable they will be based on reputation.

 

[GregK]

The Candide factions look like they are out of production. Seen em and they look fun. Lighter more progressive. Wonder how they hold up? Got a pair of factions for my kids, not sure how durable they will be based on reputation.

Faction used smaller production facilities with hit and miss reliability up to 2019 when they started using the Sporten factory for production and build quality hugely improved. For 21, they moved to the Fisher plants for production and super overbuilt their skis that year with much stiffer flex than before, extra rubber damping and titanium sheets underfoot. Weight went up 300-400 grams over the 2020 models and build quality further improved too.
For 22 and on, they are now made in the Amer/Atomic plant with similar stiffer flex patterns but back again to the pre 21 lighter builds. So very good build quality still but WAY lighter(250-400gr) than the similar shape 21 models.

So I would not consider any non 21 Faction a playful charger as they don’t have the mass or damping. My original 21 CT 2.0 bought in 2020 probably has 60 plus days, close to 2 million vert, 4 stone grinds and still looks new. Love them so much I now have 7 pairs of 21 CT in 3 widths with backups! Would put the 21 CT 1.0(92mm) and 21 CT 2.0(102mm) up against any charger near their width but they are much more playful and fun to ski.

 

[Tony Storaro]

For 22 and on, they are now made in the Amer/Atomic plant with similar stiffer flex patterns but back again to the pre 21 lighter builds. So very good build quality still but WAY lighter(250-400gr) than the similar shape 21 models.

One of the Amer factories in EU (matter of fact I have no idea how many there are) is located in my sweet home country and I regularly pass it on my way to one of the resorts here and this year there was a Faction logo there. Perhaps I should just bribe someone so they can put rubber damping and more titanal in the current Dancer skis. Something has to be done you know, we need our CT 21s back.

 

[altabrig]

Faction used smaller production facilities with hit and miss reliability up to 2019 when they started using the Sporten factory for production and build quality hugely improved. For 21, they moved to the Fisher plants for production and super overbuilt their skis that year with much stiffer flex than before, extra rubber damping and titanium sheets underfoot. Weight went up 300-400 grams over the 2020 models and build quality further improved too.
For 22 and on, they are now made in the Amer/Atomic plant with similar stiffer flex patterns but back again to the pre 21 lighter builds. So very good build quality still but WAY lighter(250-400gr) than the similar shape 21 models.

So I would not consider any non 21 Faction a playful charger as they don’t have the mass or damping. My original 21 CT 2.0 bought in 2020 probably has 60 plus days, close to 2 million vert, 4 stone grinds and still looks new. Love them so much I now have 7 pairs of 21 CT in 3 widths with backups! Would put the 21 CT 1.0(92mm) and 21 CT 2.0(102mm) up against any charger near their width but they are much more playful and fun to ski.

Great beta. I had read a little bit about that the Faction Austrian ski build added dampness and weight. Maybe the kids will get a couple seasons out of theirs. Sounds like a good base and fat edges on your 21 CT 2.0. I have seen the 112mm 3.0 with the tricolor frenchi topsheet on the hill. Guy wasn't Candide but he did a decent facsimile considering that 0.001 percent of skiers may ski like Candide on his worst day on their best day. They had some fresh ones at Lone Pine GX in a couple lengths and widths SLC a couple months ago, I should have grabbed them. When I went back a few weeks ago they were gone.

The 21s sound bomber. I have fisher austrian factory sl/gs dual radii. They are great heavy damp carvers. Hope the Bulgarian and Ukranian build skis follow the tradition of burly builds which seems less in vogue with the light, nimble, poppy, low swing evolution of skis.

What binders you using on those Candides?

Wonder if there is any overlap or design exchange with the engineers and builders between the atomic/solly skis and the factions built in the same Amer plant. Probably not. I am jonesing to get a new charger for next season, but with less weight than my old crud crusher/mountain smoother. GAS. I can keep it going with another base grind though. Candides don't look like they were produced for the last season (WHY????), they would be hard to find at this point in a charger length.

 

[GregK]

One of the Amer factories in EU (matter of fact I have no idea how many there are) is located in my sweet home country and I regularly pass it on my way to one of the resorts here and this year there was a Faction logo there. Perhaps I should just bribe someone so they can put rubber damping and more titanal in the current Dancer skis. Something has to be done you know, we need our CT 21s back.

Yeah, get on that!!! Lol

It’s the Mana line that was the former CT line with the Mana 2 and Mana 3 being the same ski as the 22 CT 2.0 and CT 3.0. Same shape as the 21 CT 2.0 and CT 3.0 but lighter builds.
The Dancer is the Dictator replacements(again similar skis but different size options) that have 2 very thin metal sheets but a very light wood core. Similar weight to the 22 CT and 23 Mana line so could use a few hundred more grams of mass in those too!

 

[salvatore]

This is an interesting discussion regarding the build quality of the ski. When you look at a Moment Wildcat, for example, one of the first things you notice is how thick they are. Beefy.

 

[Tony Storaro]

Yeah, get on that!!! Lol

It’s the Mana line that was the former CT line with the Mana 2 and Mana 3 being the same ski as the 22 CT 2.0 and CT 3.0. Same shape as the 21 CT 2.0 and CT 3.0 but lighter builds.
The Dancer is the Dictator replacements(again similar skis but different size options) that have 2 very thin metal sheets but a very light wood core. Similar weight to the 22 CT and 23 Mana line so could use a few hundred more grams of mass in those too!

Yeah I know that. I just do not like the looks of Mana. It is stupid. Dancer-more better. So we will have to change the core too. Damn this is getting more difficult.

 

[François Pugh]

When I think of a "chargey" ski, I think damp, crud busting, long(er) radius. My wife thinks of me as a charger type skier lmao! I'm a short turns enjoyer!!! I just do short turns fast. I don't agree with a typical charger ski. It's like a "Big Mountain Lite". Think long lines and avalanches but the fake, resort version of it. So charger would be a longer sidecut and pretty beefy construction. IMO.

When the call is Charge, you charge straight at the enemy. Think of a cavalry charge. There is no turning. To me that's charging, straight ahead, full-speed ahead.
To others the idea is to "attack", that can be interpreted as making aggressive high-g turns (short or long).

 

[François Pugh]

So am I.

Skis are often what you make of it. A FIS SL is playful if you do it right.

But they aren't "Chargers"; FIS speed skis are chargers.

To me a playful charger would be what you end up with if you take a speed ski add width and rocker and a tiny bit more taper. Mind you it would only be playful once you attained a sufficient speed.

 

[GregK]

Great beta. I had read a little bit about that the Faction Austrian ski build added dampness and weight. Maybe the kids will get a couple seasons out of theirs. Sounds like a good base and fat edges on your 21 CT 2.0. I have seen the 112mm 3.0 with the tricolor frenchi topsheet on the hill. Guy wasn't Candide but he did a decent facsimile considering that 0.001 percent of skiers may ski like Candide on his worst day on their best day. They had some fresh ones at Lone Pine GX in a couple lengths and widths SLC a couple months ago, I should have grabbed them. When I went back a few weeks ago they were gone.

The 21s sound bomber. I have fisher austrian factory sl/gs dual radii. They are great heavy damp carvers. Hope the Bulgarian and Ukranian build skis follow the tradition of burly builds which seems less in vogue with the light, nimble, poppy, low swing evolution of skis.

What binders you using on those Candides?

Wonder if there is any overlap or design exchange with the engineers and builders between the atomic/solly skis and the factions built in the same Amer plant. Probably not. I am jonesing to get a new charger for next season, but with less weight than my old crud crusher/mountain smoother. GAS. I can keep it going with another base grind though. Candides don't look like they were produced for the last season (WHY????), they would be hard to find at this point in a charger length.

The 21 CT do make you at least FEEL like Candide a bit the way they can haul at speed and be unfazed. Still wouldn’t recommend going through mogul fields at 50mph though…..haha

Candide left Faction before last year so they just changed the name to Mana and changed the top sheets on the CT 2.0 and CT 3.0. Came out with a new model, the Mana 4 instead of just relabeling the CT 5.0 in Candide’s honour as that was his “signature ski.”
Candide now has his own line coming for next year at 101mm, 111mm and 121mm but have heard they are back to softer flexing and lighter weight like the pre 21 CT. The mid 180cm 101mm I heard was 1800gr Vs the 183cm 21 CT 2.0 which is 2300gr!

All the Faction skis the last few years have been dual radius too which makes them very stable at speed but east to initiate turns when you wanted. I use Attacks on all my skis as I can get them cheap, they are pretty flat with low stack height with a decent adjustment range. Go to the metal heeled 16 or 17 on some skis to get more damping on some of the lighter skis in the quiver.

Faction has 2 of the best ski designers on their staff who were responsible for the relaunch of Kastle skis and are responsible for many of their designs too. So I would think they would supply all the design specs to Amer who would use their materials and facilities to make them. I’m sure there’s a bit of “working with each other” on the actual building process though.

There are some similar builds to 21 CT out there with the Blackops 118 being like a cambered CT 4.0 with the build of a wide 21 CT 1.0 or CT 2.0. Low taper so it grips and carves great, rubber damping and 2500gr. Liked mine so much this year I bought backups of it too at insane Spring Deals.
Sender Free 110 is again a similar build and shape to a 21 CT but unfortunately they put in Air Tip(light tip/tail spacers) and didn’t run the rubber damping all the way up the tips/tails in order to highlight them. That ski would be another one @Tony Storaro should go to the factory similar make them run the rubber higher up the ski. Would transform them!

What charger skis are you thinking of replacing in case there’s a similar ski out there now?

 

[GregK]

Yeah I know that. I just do not like the looks of Mana. It is stupid. Dancer-more better. So we will have to change the core too. Damn this is getting more difficult.

So you want core AND top sheet changes? La de da!!!! Lol
Sender Free 110 kinda boring too so you might have to change those too while you’re in the factory chatting up Tatum……

Don’t like the gloss black Mana top sheets either as they look scratched to Hell even new! Don’t know why more companies don’t go to matte, dimpled finishes like the 21 CT as they look great still after lots of use.

 

[Rdputnam515]

One of the Amer factories in EU (matter of fact I have no idea how many there are) is located in my sweet home country and I regularly pass it on my way to one of the resorts here and this year there was a Faction logo there. Perhaps I should just bribe someone so they can put rubber damping and more titanal in the current Dancer skis. Something has to be done you know, we need our CT 21s back.

I wonder if Marshall from Heritage would be interested in running the 21’ CT 3.0 and 2.0 patterns? May be worth a shot. I have also heard his builder makes some pretty nice quality stuff.

 

[GregK]

I wonder if Marshall from Heritage would be interested in running the 21’ CT 3.0 and 2.0 patterns? May be worth a shot. I have also heard his builder makes some pretty nice quality stuff.

Blossom is building the “Race Room” line which are very good at making skis! Excellent heavy cores, metal and rubber too! A 21 CT shape and profile with those builds would be amazing I’m sure!

The R87 and R99 remind me of a more directional, flat tailed 21 CT 1.0 and CT 2.0 with similar weight and turning radius. The reviews of the heavy build R99 sound like the 21 CT 2.0 on groomers but less playful and fun off piste and in bumps.

 

[mulva28]

Blossom is building the “Race Room” line which are very good at making skis! Excellent heavy cores, metal and rubber too! A 21 CT shape and profile with those builds would be amazing I’m sure!

The R87 and R99 remind me of a more directional, flat tailed 21 CT 1.0 and CT 2.0 with similar weight and turning radius. The reviews of the heavy build R99 sound like the 21 CT 2.0 on groomers but less playful and fun off piste and in bumps.

I've got a Blossom FIS SL (I'm guessing this is the build Marshall is using) and it's solidly built. Lots of fun! A long 87 or 99 Race Room construction sounds like a hoot for big, fast lines on low tide days. Too much for me though. Maybe (probably) in my younger days and before my knee injury.

 

[KingGrump]

But they aren't "Chargers"; FIS speed skis are chargers.

To me a playful charger would be what you end up with if you take a speed ski add width and rocker and a tiny bit more taper. Mind you it would only be playful once you attained a sufficient speed.

Maybe for a 200' vertical hill. 3K+ vertical hills, no.
Not to mention off piste. That's a different ball game. Good way for the death and dismember rider on the insurance policy to kick in.

 

[Tony Storaro]

So you want core AND top sheet changes? La de da!!!! Lol
Sender Free 110 kinda boring too so you might have to change those too while you’re in the factory chatting up Tatum……

Don’t like the gloss black Mana top sheets either as they look scratched to Hell even new! Don’t know why more companies don’t go to matte, dimpled finishes like the 21 CT as they look great still after lots of use.

It must be the virus of car interior designers-piano black, we need MORE piano black!! Stoopid.

 

[cantunamunch]

It must be the virus of car interior designers-piano black, we need MORE piano black!! Stoopid.

It shows up dirt and smudges so much better.

 

[Tony S]

Yeah I know that. I just do not like the looks of Mana. It is stupid. Dancer-more better. So we will have to change the core too. Damn this is getting more difficult.

You guys that have tons of skis and lots of strong opinions: Why don't you start your own ski company? Build your own.

 

[Tony Storaro]

You guys that have tons of skis and lots of strong opinions: Why don't you start your own ski company? Build your own.

Dunno about skis but topsheets-in a heartbeat.
It will be a glorious day when some manufacturer starts offering custom graphics.

And yeah-black glossy ski IS stupid.

 

[salvatore]

It will be a glorious day when some manufacturer starts offering custom graphics.

Folsom does this. Maybe Wagner as well?