Van Deer/Red Bull and WC Racing

[Philpug]

From Ski Racing Media

By SR Staff Report|April 16th, 2022
Charlie Raposo is the first athlete signed to Van Deer
Marcel Hirscher’s ski brand, Van Deer, has announced that Charlie Raposo is their first official signed athlete. Raposo is excited about the opportunity, saying “I’m super proud and it’s an honor to be the first athlete to be announced on Van Deer, to be under the Hirschers’ wings, and to continue to drive my career forward.”
Charlie Raposo is one of six British athletes to score points on the alpine World Cup this season including back-to-back top 30 GSs in Kranjska Gora, Slovenia. Raposo finished 27th on March 12th, then backed up that performance the next day with a 16th to score 19 GS points for the season. In addition, Raposo scored 14 points earlier in the season at the Lech Zurs Parallel.

 

[dbostedo]

Well it will be interesting to see how many more sign on, and whether or not there are any "significant" names... I'd guess there won't be, until/unless the skis are more proven out.

 

[Philpug]

Well it will be interesting to see how many more sign on, and whether or not there are any "significant" names... I'd guess there won't be, until/unless the skis are more proven out.

I am not sure it is the question of the ski's quality but more not being affiliated with a boot and having the support there.

 

[dbostedo]

I am not sure it is the question of the ski's quality but more not being affiliated with a boot and having the support there.

How much does the boot affiliation also dictate the skis? How often do racers have mixed brands? Would Head, or Lange/Rossi, or Atomic, or Fischer try to force a skier to be on their skis too?

This is making me realize how little I know about brand affiliations for WC skiers... does Stockli even make boots? What do those on Stockli skis wear? What about Volkl?

 

[Primoz]

@dbostedo only company where racers can pick boots on their own is Stockli, which doesn't have their own boots. Volkl has Dalbello. Everything else, at least on WC level is same boot same ski. There's no way any company with let skiers ski competitors boots (let's forget now about different boots painted in proper company's colors).
As for original news... I was pretty surprised few weeks ago when I heard about this. I was honestly expecting slightly higher ranked skiers not complete noname, especially after listening all that boasting about some top Austrian skiers switching to them. I'm sure it's no all yet, but for start, I was expecting more.

 

[dbostedo]

only company where racers can pick boots on their own is Stockli, which doesn't have their own boots

Well I guess from Van Deer's point of view, maybe at least there's a good precedent for someone on a different ski than their boots.

 

[Ivan]

@dbostedo only company where racers can pick boots on their own is Stockli, which doesn't have their own boots. Volkl has Dalbello. Everything else, at least on WC level is same boot same ski. There's no way any company with let skiers ski competitors boots (let's forget now about different boots painted in proper company's colors).
As for original news... I was pretty surprised few weeks ago when I heard about this. I was honestly expecting slightly higher ranked skiers not complete noname, especially after listening all that boasting about some top Austrian skiers switching to them. I'm sure it's no all yet, but for start, I was expecting more.

Well, there is maybe just one exception to this rule. Giuliano Razzoli is on Fischer skis but in Lange boots.

 

[Primoz]

I didn't know this @Ivan. But that's something very recent, as I remember him being in Fischer boots before.

 

[Ivan]

I didn't know this @Ivan. But that's something very recent, as I remember him being in Fischer boots before.

I checked this, and it turns out that this is not as recent as I thought. He was all Fischer until 2017/18, then switched to Lange/Volkl starting from 18/19, and then to Lange/Fischer starting from 20/21. This is definitely a pretty unusual history of brand changes.

 

[James]

Well he’s somewhere between 39th and 80th rank in gs.

 

[Primoz]

@James that's what I meant. Not really name most of people would expect when there was so much talk about picking racers with potential etc. But I guess there are two thing, most likely both together, which they obviously forgot before... or thought someone else will take care of it. One, proper race service is not cheap, especially when you want race service for someone who's serious contender, and two, someone not in back of the pack is not all that cheap either. They don't cost millions, but they don't cost 100eur either.

 

[Muleski]

They will likely eventually push Razzoli into a yellow boot. The Fischer boots absolutely do not work for everybody. Over the years Fischer was “OK” with this…..particularly those at the top of the game. Seems very rare now.

I know one of the US women was skiing pretty well a few years ago on Lange/Fisher. Had been for years. They forced her into a yellow boot. Nope. Went back into a Lange, and tested Rossi, Dynastar…..and Stockli. Stockli.

Nowhere near what she once was. Point is that forcing the boots on athletes might be good business. But is it, if they don’t work for the athlete? Another is Dalbello. Not a great boot for some.

I dunno. Normally, at least for the best they can build boots that work! Head made it work for LGB, and Ana with their tiny feet!

And….it’s a big business. Money talks. As @Primoz notes, not cheap in terms of expenses, either.

I think Charlie is an “interesting” choice. Ski racing is fun for him, a joy. Not really the usual career pressures. He’s just fine as is.

That’s the level guy that Hirscher can probably get. But like @Primoz, I am not too impressed yet.

Charlie is typical of Global Racing. Solid skier. Eventual consistent WC scorer? Maybe. WC podium? Nope.

 

[James]

How is 19 points in gs a rank of 80, while 150 points in SL is a rank of of 4270? Seems insane.

Interview with Epstein of Global Racing and Willy Booker of Burke Mt Academy:

The Next Turn - skiing, ski racing and sport

 

[Ivan]

They will likely eventually push Razzoli into a yellow boot. The Fischer boots absolutely do not work for everybody. Over the years Fischer was “OK” with this…..particularly those at the top of the game. Seems very rare now.

@Muleski your posts about the World Cup stuff are always insightful, but I think I might disagree with you on this one (even though I don't have any intel here). Given that Razzoli is 37 now, I think there is a good chance that he'll retire before they push him into a yellow boot In fact, I would guess that one of the reasons (perhaps the main reason) why he was "allowed" to make these "weird" brand changes is that he was/is approaching retirement anyway, and his "marketing value" is pretty low.

I remember you wrote before that Alice Robinson, who was on Volkl and switched from Lange to Dalbello, was pushed into a white/green boot, and her story is very different in this regard. She is a rising star, so the marketing potential is huge, and no brand would want to leave anything on the table. Just my two cents.

 

[Muleski]

How is 19 points in gs a rank of 80, while 150 points in SL is a rank of of 4270? Seems insane.

Interview with Epstein of Global Racing and Willy Booker of Burke Mt Academy:

The Next Turn - skiing, ski racing and sport

The points differential is not insane. First of all Charlie is a GS specialist, as many are. The last time that he started a SL was 5 plus years ago. 19 points is pretty darn "solid", but not at all strong for somebody with real WC aspirations. River R is two years younger, has 5.27 points and a WR in the teens. Just to contrast.

Charlie, IMO is a strange choice. Unless he's investing in it.

The podcast with Martin has very little to do with this, right? But it is interesting. If you read between the lines it's essentially shitting all over the USST development system. I am not a huge Willy fan, but I am totally impressed with Paul. BTW, trivia.If Bode had not has his K2 Four breakthrough/explosion at Junior Nationals in 1996, who would have been the top overall?.......Willy Booker.

Those guys and their programs are very good, though I could argue that BMA is a bit of a dip right now. They develop a LOT of world class talent. Paul is doing what the USST should be doing.

 

[James]

If you read between the lines it's essentially shitting all over the USST development system. I

That was my take too. Yes, that interview is unrelated, it was last year. I’d love to hear him off the record.

Charlie, IMO is a strange choice. Unless he's investing in it.

Yeah it seems a bit odd to pick someone with not much of a podium shot in gs and uncompetitive in slalom.

 

[Muleski]

@Muleski your posts about the World Cup stuff are always insightful, but I think I might disagree with you on this one (even though I don't have any intel here). Given that Razzoli is 37 now, I think there is a good chance that he'll retire before they push him into a yellow boot In fact, I would guess that one of the reasons (perhaps the main reason) why he was "allowed" to make these "weird" brand changes is that he was/is approaching retirement anyway, and his "marketing value" is pretty low.

I remember you wrote before that Alice Robinson, who was on Volkl and switched from Lange to Dalbello, was pushed into a white/green boot, and her story is very different in this regard. She is a rising star, so the marketing potential is huge, and no brand would want to leave anything on the table. Just my two cents.

Good point. Perhaps I more accurately should have said at this point Fischer does not give a Rat's Ass about a skier like Razzoli. Totally off their radar screen. Who's know what his deal is. Maybe it's skis, free, and not much more! You're right he, I believe does nothing for Fischer. Not like Fischer is putting a lot of money into athletes. Some of the older guys like a Nyman, are likely doing OK, as they don't seem to cut their support {including cash} way back. I wonder what Bennett will do when his Fischer deal is up. A number of folks have suggested in recent years that Sam Morse might be better on a different setup, but being a nice, loyal guy, he sticks with Fischer. I think he's been on the ski since he was about four. He's not doing much for them. Nobody knows who he is, really.

Alice has a LOT of things to get fixed, with her skiing. I hear a lot about her boots from the guy who really got her properly set up in a ZB as a U16. The Dalbello was a disaster until they built her the Lange clone. However, she seems to have setup, ski, boot issues. She makes one type of turn one size, one shape in the words of a few WC alums and observers "better than anybody in the sport." But she has a lot of things to sort out. As long as we're airing it all out, I think that she, and her parents should work with the NZ federation on a new team of coaches. I think they were sold a bill of goods and some big names. They are doing nothing, IMO.

Being LV's coaches at the time they coached her means you dealt with a fully dialed in and developed athlete.....nt a 20 year old....who was 6' and about 175 plus lbs. {true dat at her peak}, and who was borderline crazy, just sending it with pure abandon.

Not the way to develop the best GS, and likely SG talent on tour........

And yeah, they should look carefully at a ski and boot change. He contract runs out at the end of next season.

Rambling. Alice gets me fired up. Great kid, great attitude and so much talent. And as a few who have coached her tell me: HUGE balls.

Those in on the coach staffing wanted serious bona fide WC experience. Which does not always work.

 

[Muleski]

That was my take too. Yes, that interview is unrelated, it was last year. I’d love to hear him off the record.

I thought the Martin did that Podcast this February. Maybe not.

A timely interview would be right after this season's US Nationals, where the Team Global crew seriously embarrassed the USST development ranks on an overall basis. Paul Epstein knows how to coach, how to manage athletes, how to help them grow up and be totally self sufficient. The guy is GOLD. He had a vision for Gobal and has built a great program. The best.

Compare it to some of the pretenders......no comparison.

 

[ScotsSkier]

Funny how no one has asked the obvious question yet......aren't the Van Deere skis just rebadged Augments at the current time???

 

[Muleski]

Funny how no one has asked the obvious question yet......aren't the Van Deere skis just rebadged Augments at the current time???

Good question! Wonder if we’ll ever know. Do the shapes and sizes match up, at least for now?

Would like to think there is more to it than that….but who knows?

Marketing can create great illusions!